Oral-History:J. Roberto B. de Marca
About J. Roberto B. de Marca
José Roberto Boisson de Marca, 2014 IEEE President, IEEE Life Fellow, and Eta Kappa Nu member, was elevated to IEEE Fellow in 1995 “for leadership and contributions to international communications.” De Marca received his undergraduate engineering degree from the Pontifical Catholic University in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and then joined Embratel (Brazilian long-distance carrier) where he worked as a data communications engineer. He was a Fulbright Scholar at the University of Southern California, where he earned a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering in 1977. Then he joined the faculty of the Catholic University, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where he has held several leadership and administrative positions including Associate Academic Vice President for Sponsored Research. Twice on leave, de Marca served as Scientific Consultant with AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, New Jersey. An active IEEE volunteer, de Marca served as President of the IEEE Communications Society in 2000–2001; IEEE Secretary; member of the IEEE Board of Directors from 2004–2006, Division III (Communications Technology) Director; and the 2008 IEEE Vice President for Technical Activities.
About the Interview
J. ROBERTO B. DE MARCA: An Interview Conducted by Mary Ann Hellrigel for the IEEE History Center, 14 September 2021.
Interview #860 for the IEEE History Center, The Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, Inc.
Copyright Statement
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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:
J. Roberto B. de Marca, an oral history conducted in 2021 by Mary Ann Hellrigel, IEEE History Center, Piscataway, NJ USA.
Interview
INTERVIEWEE: Roberto de Marca
INTERVIEWER: Mary Ann Hellrigel
DATE: 14 September 2021
PLACE: Virtual via WebEx
Early life and education
Hellrigel:
Today is September 14, 2021. I am Mary Ann Hellrigel, Institutional Historian and Archivist at the IEEE History Center. I am with Roberto de Marca, 2014 IEEE President. Professor de Marca is in Rio de Janeiro, I'm in New Jersey, and we're recording his oral history via WebEx. Thank you. We will get started.
We cover your life history, not just your IEEE experience, so if I get too nosy, just let me know. Okay?
de Marca:
Okay. No problem.
Hellrigel:
Now, I know your name is a little longer than I said.
de Marca:
Yes, it is.
Hellrigel:
What's your official name, sir?
de Marca:
My first name is José Roberto, not always Roberto.
de Marca:
Then, I have my mother's sir name, which is Boisson, a French word, and then de Marca comes from my father's side. The full name is José Roberto Boisson de Marca. If we pronounce the R. When I say Portuguese, I say Roberto.
Hellrigel:
Roberto.
de Marca:
Roberto, it's a little different. The reason I select Roberto de Marca was it was easy for people to pronounce as a name in the U.S. When I was a student at USC, I could see that the José was a problem because they pronounced it in Spanish. I didn't like the pronunciation, so I got to drop José for U.S. purposes.
Hellrigel:
You go by Roberto?
de Marca:
For IEEE, yes. To my family, it's Roberto.
Hellrigel:
Well, thank you.
de Marca:
It's a two-name first name.
Hellrigel:
Two-name first name, José Roberto. I have a two-name first name, but the computers and people, they can't deal with it.
de Marca:
That's why I dropped one first name.
Hellrigel:
If you don't mind, could you tell us what year you were born and where you were born?
de Marca:
1950, in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I still live there, and I still live about four miles from where I was born.
Hellrigel:
Oh, okay. You did travel the world and live in other places for education and work, and you've returned home.
de Marca:
That's right, but, eventually, I got not far from where I was born.
Hellrigel:
Could you tell us a bit about your mother and father, their first names, last names, where did they come from?
de Marca:
My father also has two-name first name. It's José Yiene, and the Yiene was some crazy thing from his grandfather. My father had two siblings, one brother and [one] sister. He was the youngest. The other two had a name which started with a Y, first name. My father liked Hene in the first name, but let's make it a Y, so it became Yiene. José and Hene was the first name of my father, and de Marca, of course, is an Italian name, except they all use one last name. My mother’s first name was Yvette, and her maiden name was Yvette Pargona Boisson, and when she got married, she's Yvette Pargona Boisson de Marca.
Hellrigel:
You have French heritage and Italian heritage.
de Marca:
French, yes, from my mother's side, and from my father's side, Italian heritage. Nowadays, they could have an Italian passport, too. My mother, part of her family came from France, yes. The father's side.
Hellrigel:
Did they move to Brazil after World War II?
de Marca:
No. They moved before. Both, the French side was like the nineteenth century, and the Italian was before, but not much before, but before. Funny, three brothers came from Italy, and they married three sisters that also came from Italy, apparently.
Hellrigel:
Wow. What were the education and occupation of both your mother and father?
de Marca:
My father was a civil engineer, and for a while, he had a civil [engineering] company, but then, neither myself nor my brother decided to go into civil engineering. Both of us are electronic engineers, telecommunications engineers, so eventually, my father shut down the company and he took a federal exam, a national exam. He was approved, and he became an IRS analyst for the rest of his professional life.
Hellrigel:
IRS? Tax man?
de Marca:
Yes, tax man. That was after he was like fifty, fifty-two [years old]. These exams are very difficult, but he was able to be number one in the whole exam. He was able to stay in Rio because, sometimes, people have to transfer to other places. He passed these exams and since he was the first in the exam, he was able to stay in Rio, so he didn't have any problem with family moving around. My mother, she got first in Latin language, and so the arts. Laer, when she was maybe fifty, she also got a law degree. She didn't practice much as a lawyer, but she got a degree. Actually, I think she was [at university] like in the mid-1940s, and it was very unusual that in Brazil women went to universities to get higher degrees.
Hellrigel:
Education was important to the family.
de Marca:
Yes. Yes. Definitely. My father expected that I would perform well.
Hellrigel:
He laid down the law regarding that you were going to go to university?
de Marca:
Yes, he did.
Hellrigel:
You mentioned that you had two brothers, right?
de Marca:
No, one brother. He also has a degree in electrical engineering, actually, in telecommunications. He got a bachelor's degree in telecommunications. Later on, then, he first left for somewhere, a big [unclear word] company in Brazil. Eventually, he followed in my father’s footsteps because it was a nice career. He took the exam to become an IRS tax man. Except, he had to move out of Rio for a while, and then he came back. Now he is here, staying in Rio for the rest of his career until he retires in maybe a few years ago, two years to go.
Hellrigel:
Your parents had two children. When you were growing up, what did you think you would do? What was your dream?
de Marca:
It is funny. I was discussing that recently with my wife. The first thing I wanted to do was become a diplomat.
Hellrigel:
Diplomat.
de Marca:
Yes, because that actually has very high respect here in Brazil. And the reason I want to be a diplomat, from what I recall, is because they traveled a lot. They got to go place to place. But then, it depends on most of your schooling, and it had to be mostly languages to get the places. In Brazil, there's an institute that you have to attend to become a diplomat. It's not like you can go from other careers. I guess you have to select this from high school.
Hellrigel:
It is a special college?
de Marca:
A special federal institute for diplomats. They have a very tough exam, mostly language. At that time, when I was like ten, eleven, twelve [years old], I felt that I would not be good at language. I was good at mathematics. Of course, later in life, I did travel a lot. I did perform several functions of a diplomat. I had to dress up. I had to go to several countries with people, meet some politicians, and so, in some way, I did both. I was an engineer and had this diplomat flavor of my career.
Hellrigel:
You speak four languages or three?
de Marca:
I speak Portuguese and English. I can understand French well. I did teach some courses in Italy, so I know a little Italian. I did take three years of French, so I had French when I was in high school. So, I've got a bit of all these Latin languages, plus English, yes.
Hellrigel:
That came in handy when you do your traveling with work.
de Marca:
Definitely.
Hellrigel:
You were growing up and you had an idea to become a diplomat, but you're good at mathematics. Did you have any classes that you disliked? When I talk to people who are educated in Great Britain, they usually say they didn’t like Latin.
de Marca:
Good one. Definitely was that. I had to take Latin the first two years and then they changed the [curriculum] to move Latin. Latin probably was the discipline that I had the most difficulty with. - - was telling me. In that case, my mother, who had a degree in Latin language helped with Latin. Yes. Definitely, a very difficult one. And, I wasn't very good at drawing, freehand drawings, but there are some disciplines that require some drawing, and technical drawing even. So, I think that the technical drawing was a lot more difficult for me.
Hellrigel:
Yes, a civil engineer would require that more so.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
Did you have any hobbies growing up? Did you play sports?
de Marca:
I did have sports. I like sports. I even competed formally for a club in rowing in the state championship, also for crewing.
Hellrigel:
Rowing, a crew team.
de Marca:
I also, for a while, maybe three years, did some water polo and swimming. Water polo I played in my high school and, of course, in Brazil, we always play soccer. Since I lived close to the beach, I played in the sand, and also, myself and my friends, we had a volleyball net set up on the beach we could play beach volleyball. At that time, not for two each side, we played four, six. Then, it was fours. As I said, I even competed at a little bit higher level, so that was a hobby. My favorite hobby was to do sports and follow sports. In Brazil, in Rio, it was very easy to have a group of friends and watch because there's a lot of people and you've got a lot of people to socialize. They go to the beach together, do some surfing, body surfing.
Hellrigel:
Any cliff diving off the high cliffs?
de Marca:
No. That's too much for me. Going to the beach, swimming, and body surfing, was a challenge for my parents because both of them did not know how to swim. They were very scared on the sand, while I was swimming in the ocean, beyond where the waves break. So, that was a challenge for them.
Hellrigel:
Right. When you were growing up, did you have a large extended family with lots of aunts and uncles in Rio de Janeiro?
de Marca:
No, not really. My father's side of the family actually lives in another state. Not very— - - of the two states. Mostly children were there, so I would see them. I had one cousin that I could play with and ride bicycles, but in Rio, my family is very small. My grandfather only had two kids, my mother, and my uncle. My uncle had one son, so that was a small family. For my mother's side it really was a small family.
Hellrigel:
As you're growing up, you were interested in mathematics. Did you have any part-time jobs?
de Marca:
I don’t remember that.
Hellrigel:
For example, in the U.S, a couple of people I talked to said they repaired TVs or radios, but they were older than you, so that may be a generation earlier.
de Marca:
Well, what happens is the following. My father very, very early, I can recall like eight years old, made me help him in the construction company. So, when I was eight years old, he said, he had to pay the workers every week, and he paid cash on every Saturday, so he had to put the bills in envelopes to pay the people. He asked me to help fill the envelopes with the money. And then, after that, he often asked for my help, but he wanted me to focus on studying, but still. Later, when I was, say fourteen, he made me a formal staff in the company, and that was to also help me retire earlier because then I had the formal designation as a worker. I did other things for myself like I used to go down to the streets and sell magazines to people. I would sell some magazines to people going by. So, that's what I can remember before I was eighteen. I also went to a military high school.
Hellrigel:
You went to military high school?
de Marca:
Yes. It was really - -. So, I went from eleven to seventeen. And, also, at some point, like when we were sixteen, we had to go to like an army practice, like we had to become a reservist.
Hellrigel:
A boot camp.
de Marca:
Yes. It's more than that because you got an official certificate, and we were army reservists. We had one year that we had marches and we had to do things and I had to stand guard in the school overnight. They did several things that were preparing a soldier and that took a lot of the time on that particular year, which was what we call the one before.
Hellrigel:
The senior year?
de Marca:
It had to like a junior.
Hellrigel:
The junior year.
de Marca:
Yes, so like sixteen years old. I don't know exactly the year. Yes, you have a bit of school, yes, and in high school, you have like training.
Hellrigel:
Yes, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior.
de Marca:
Yes, junior.
Hellrigel:
Did you have to do this kind of training if you went to a Catholic school as opposed to a military school?
de Marca:
No. Then, after they become eighteen, they would have to do some army training formally. These are the requirements for every male at that time, everyone in the country, every man who became eighteen had to go to some training. But sometimes the father decided to do as much as they could to avoid their son having to go to training.
Hellrigel:
Right. You did it at age sixteen, so you already completed that requirement.
de Marca:
Yes.
Pontifical Catholic University
Hellrigel:
How did you select which college to attend? You earned your undergraduate degree from the Pontifical Catholic University in 1970.
de Marca:
Yes, 1970, 1972. Well, it's hard to say. I was very well placed, and there's a civil exam for everyone that wants to study engineering in the city for all the schools. I was very well placed, and I could select. The federal university was very far from my home. The Catholic university did really a good job. They were getting better, and they were only about less than ten miles, I mean eight miles from my home, seven miles. That was a very nice location, so, I felt it was better for me to go there instead of spending a lot of time going across the city to be at the airport, fifteen to twenty miles. So, that's probably, I'd say, mostly the reason and proximity.
Hellrigel:
So, you stayed near home.
de Marca:
My father said that he could pay for it, and then I also became a teacher assistant and got some money.
Hellrigel:
So, it helped.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
You lived at home or at college?
de Marca:
In Brazil, even today, the practice is that the children stay with their parents while they're going to high school and college. Colleges have dorms. There are some in the state of Sao Paulo that have dorms and they attract [students] from different cities of the states. But, in Rio, unless you come from another country, and it's very few people, and even these people have to find apartments for them. The university did not have dorms. So, as opposed to the U.S., most people going to college stay with their parents
Hellrigel:
When you're going to college, are there mostly men in your class?
de Marca:
Yes. Maybe only 10 percent, at most, are women.
Hellrigel:
That's pretty average for the time period. You're studying and you're getting a degree in electrical engineering. What made you focus on communications?
de Marca:
Okay. At that time, Brazil, in the school, in college, first of all, there's a difference. In Brazil, the engineering degree is a five-year degree, as opposed to four years. The five-year degree means that you can practice once you get the degree. The degree, of course, is recognized by the Association of Engineers and so on. And, so, of course, it's a five-year degree, maybe to have more disciplines. I'm an electrical engineer, and, from my undergrad, I already had my diploma with a major in telecommunications. So, I got a degree specialized telecommunication because I did more disciplines in telecommunications, but some other people did more in power. You were able to select some specialties, and that was included in your diploma that you were an electrical engineer with a specialty, in my case, in telecommunications. Why did I select that? I think I liked it because it had more mathematics. In the first of the five years, so, in my freshman year, second year, and third year, I became a teacher's assistant in physics.
Then, first I was helping in mechanics, and then I became a teacher's assistant professor. His specialty was in electrical. Actually, he was head of Ph.D. at MIT in the United States. So, I became his assistant.
Hellrigel:
What was his name?
de Marca:
His name is Sergio Machado Rezende. Later on, he was the Minister of Science and Technology in Brazil for six years, I think from 2002 to 2008. In this time frame, he was Minister of Science and Technology. When I met him, it was nice because he really liked me. He was a person who really recommended me and that gave lots of commendations to my applications to college.
Hellrigel:
The Fulbright?
de Marca:
Yes, my Fulbright, and then USC and Stanford, Purdue, the other schools where I was accepted. He provided a lot of references.
Hellrigel:
He was your mentor?
de Marca:
Yes, he was. Then because I had this physics background, and eventually, I felt that telecommunications was more appropriate. I didn't like some other areas, like electronics is a problem. You could figure out all the resistors and capacitors and so on and put it all together, but it doesn't work. I went to my professor and told him I did everything right. Oh, the resistor has a margin of error. The capacitor has a problem, so he goes there, blip, blip, blip, and everything worked. Come on. This is almost - -. I wanted something that can be precise in doing. At the end, you might think that I had two majors, one which followed more, better, process, electromagnetics, and the other side falls more let's say probability, so the whole digital communications based on probability. Make a mistake in the code 1, the code 0, and so on. I like that, so I started focusing more on communications, in my case. I changed it again, because when I was a TA (teaching assistant) in physics, and that's my - - is more important. Then I started taking classes that were based on this probability and I really like that, so I focused more on the systems and what they call systems aspects of telecommunications. That was my career later on.
Hellrigel:
At this point, you're studying mostly landlines or are you also studying satellites?
de Marca:
Satellites were still starting, so we were still working on landlines. For sure, the microwave lengths and towers and propagation antennas. Then, they start to - - additional transmission, at that time. So, that's something which I enjoyed a lot. How to compute error probabilities and to see the modulation schemes, that was something which appealed to me. Yes, mostly, my undergrad was landlines or base transmission.
Hellrigel:
I think for many people of your generation power engineering was losing its attraction, except for maybe nuclear power.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
I do not know if nuclear power was part of the curriculum at engineering schools in Brazil and South America?
de Marca:
Until today, you're right, that people older than me, most of the engineers, electrical engineers, in Latin America, they're all power. I think I was the first actually [IEEE] Fellow in communications. Most of the people were power.
Hellrigel:
Yes, and you could almost follow a country's economic development by looking at the engineering fields or specialties that were most prominent. This could reflect the current state of economic development as well as where the funding might be concentrated.
Embratel
de Marca:
Yes. Another reason I probably selected telecommunications is there was a big boom in telecommunications in Brazil. The government had created a major company to oversee, like a holding company, and they created another load line company to start to installing load lines all over the country. All my class of communications were hired by this company.
Hellrigel:
Right. I noticed you spent one year working for a company called Embratel?
de Marca:
Yes. The company I'm talking about. This company was created two years, maybe one year or two years before I graduated. That was the load lines division, so it is a load lines company for all Brazil. It was a state-owned company, and they're really growing fast. As I said, all my class in telecommunications was hired by them. In my case, I was lucky, because I actually went to a somewhat advanced area of the company that was starting to study data communications. At that time, pretty much everyone else started in satellite, check the land lines, microwave, and a lot of complications. Then, it was this group that started to think about data communications. I stayed in this company, in this division of the company.
Hellrigel:
Data communications. Most of my work is in the nineteenth and twentieth century power engineering, so data communications, is that the precursor of the Internet?
de Marca:
In some way yes. At that time, people were trying to transmit data. There were maybe 2.4 kilobytes per second, 4.8. So, yes. So, then they start to signal a like how to switch those communications. So, how to connect - - communication. So, at that point, start to become a topic of study, and - -. - - be able to transmit data with low - - airways was the precursor and - - for internet. Because, if you didn't have the communication of channels, the protocols - - problem.
Hellrigel:
Yes, you would have to bring back the semaphores, the flags.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
Now, you're working for this company, and did you enjoy that work? You seemed to like that work.
de Marca:
I liked it, but I had in mind to go to the United States for graduate school.
Hellrigel:
Why?
de Marca:
Why? For the Fulbright fellowship and that's a good [opportunity].
University of Southern California
Hellrigel:
But, if I'm not too personal, you got a steady job, and now you're not only going to graduate school you are leaving for the United States.
de Marca:
I graduated very early for a Brazilian with a five-year degree because at age 22.5 I had got my junior degree. I did it faster than others, so very early I had a nice salary, steady job, but still, let's go back to what we stress about my mentor. I would go to his office because I worked with students and experiments, and I would see all those things, IEEE, and some transactions on top of his desk. He came back from MIT. I would ask him about those journals and what they were about and so on. So, at that time, in 1970, I joined IEEE as a student member.
Hellrigel:
Okay, that's where I get 1970.
de Marca:
Yes. I saw him doing these things, so I joined. The next year, I started learning digital communications, and I had some of my guys advising me you need to do an end of the course project, an end of the year project.
The guy who was advising me was getting his master's degree, and he felt I had a good capability, so he gave me tough topic. Then I started reading some books, one famous, it was by Irwin Jacobs, which was Statistical Communication Theory, very famous. It was Jacobs from MIT. You probably have heard of Jacobs. Jacobs is the founder of Qualcomm. He's the CEO of Qualcomm, Irwin Jacobs. Then there's a tough topic. When I started reading, again, I started seeing his reference to people, universities, and papers and so on. So, I said, well, that's interesting. I think this guy seems to know more than we do. And, so, I said, well, I want to go to study there. There were some previous things in my life, although I was maybe, I don't know, fourteen, fifteen, I got interested in space exploration. I used to write to NASA and also to Concord and ask them for information about the rockets, the airplanes, and so on and so on. I got this idea there's advance work being done in other countries. When I read all these books and papers for my end of the degree project, I also got this from the desk of my mentor, I got so excited I wanted to go and study abroad. I want to go. It was very exciting. Actually, no one from my group of classmates did that. I was the only one who decided to leave my job. At that time, there was some fellowships from Brazil, but they did not allow you to do your master's degree there. You had to have a master's in Brazil. But then, there was a Fulbright scholarship. So, I went to do the master's degree in front of me, yes, and then, I was selected. I was accepted at the three schools I applied to, Perdue, Stanford, and USC. USC gave me a nice fellowship, so I selected them because it was money that I needed to get. And, actually, I did a good thing. USC had a great communications group. They are now known as the Magnificent Seven because they had a lot of support from JPL. They worked on all that space communications, and definitely it was a good time to be there, good professors and so on. That was why I decided to go because I had this. My father wasn't very much in favor of that. He felt it was better if I followed my career because I would make more money, it would be safer, and so on. But, of course, later on, he was very happy and very proud. But, at that time, he wasn't so happy.
Hellrigel:
Right. It was a big risk.
de Marca:
Yes. Also, because, at that time, with no internet, we were pretty much detached from the family. We could communicate by letters. Telephone was $3 a minute, so it was very hard to communicate with family. I didn't come back to Brazil for two years, and that probably also weighed on with my mother and father. But eventually, he went to see me and my brother, too, so that was good. I really enjoyed my time.
Hellrigel:
At USC, the University of Southern California.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
You got your master's degree and then the Ph.D.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
You just continued working? Which professors did you work with, the Magnificent Seven [the group of electrical engineers that founded the USC Communications Science Institute in 1982], throughout this time?
de Marca:
Yes, that's right. So, the one I—they still are. They're still there, and they want my advice, but Robert Scholtz. He got one of the awards in 2007. There are others, like - - Long, he passed away, but he was, at some point, - - awards. So, there are seven people in different specialties in space communications, but all these more specific aspects of communications, - - communications, Robert Gabiardi, so it was an excellent group that they formed. There was a very famous vice president called - -, and he brought all this money from space to form this communications group. I really enjoyed it. They were not only very good teachers, but they were also very good people. In particular, Bob Schultz was very nice, and he made me part of his family. He always invited me to his home for Thanksgiving. And, so, recently I went to visit him, actually just before the pandemic, not so recently anymore. Just before December 2019, I had dinner with him. So, I was lucky in that sense. I had a very good time at USC, and I learned to enjoy American football. USC had a very good team.
Hellrigel:
Yes, I don't know if that was the OJ Simpson era.
de Marca:
He was just before I came in 1970. I arrived in 1973. There was that coach who became a professional coach later on. When I was there, USC was the national champion twice. I have a story about the first game I went to watch. I didn't see much of American football before I was there. The game started, and it was USC against Notre Dame, so a major game. All these people just - - and then, the band goes in, du-wah dun, duh, ta, da.
Hellrigel:
Oh, the pageantry.
de Marca:
Yes, then the game started, and Notre Dame scored 34-0 in the first half. And then, at the end of the first half, USC, a guy called - -, scored a touchdown and they missed an extra point. The score was 34-6. Then comes second half, all of a sudden, USC starts to play like crazy, and they eventually won the game 55-34, scoring 49 points in the second half.
Hellrigel:
Wow.
de Marca:
The whole stadium was screaming and shouting, so it was a great experience. Then, after that, I became a fan, and I really enjoyed the games. Today, I still watch.
Hellrigel:
You watch USC?
de Marca:
It is so much harder because Brazil doesn't show so much college football, but I do watch NFL. I do enjoy watching games, American football games. Of course, I root for USC.
Hellrigel:
So, you became a convert to the big sport, American football. How about baseball?
de Marca:
I watch a lot of baseball. USC had a good team. There was a guy named Fred Lee from Boston, and a very famous coach, too. But it's so slow. It's good to watch at home, and then we go watch and wait for the guy to go - -.
Hellrigel:
Yes, it does not move like football; it is a slow game.
de Marca:
So, I prefer basketball and football much more. And, of course, hockey doesn't have much appeal with me living in a hot country. It doesn't.
Hellrigel:
No.
de Marca:
Basketball I like very much, too. So, that's a yes. I became a fan of the big American sports.
Hellrigel:
You enjoyed your academic experience and the cultural experience, too. You didn't just stay in the lab all the time. You got out a bit.
de Marca:
Definitely. Yes, I think I like more a variety of interests, not only scientific interests. I like music. I like sports. I like art. Maybe because I travel, and also in the U.S., I sort of got more knowledgeable and appreciative of these things, and even the politics. I remember when I just got there, I think it was just when Nixon resigned, so that was an exciting time.
Hellrigel:
Oh, yes. Yes, I was in junior high school at the time, and I can still see him waving and getting on the helicopter leaving the White House, because that was historic.
de Marca:
Interesting. Deep throat and so on.
Hellrigel:
Oh, yes. In retrospect, you just wonder because it seemed Nixon was going to be reelected, win the election anyway, so what were they doing? At the time, he was desperate to win.
de Marca:
That's one of the major mistakes that some people make. I think they feel so powerful, they do things that don’t really make any sense.
Hellrigel:
Yes. When were a graduate student did you get to teach some of your own courses?
de Marca:
No. One thing I did was take an exam. I did very well on the final exam. Actually, I aced it, all ten questions. So, the next year, the professor asked me to grade exams and help prepare the questions on the for the qualifying exams for the next group of students.
Hellrigel:
Wow.
de Marca:
Yes, so that's my only experience in terms of helping professors in the job.
Hellrigel:
At what point did you decide you wanted to be a professor and not go into industry and work for a company?
de Marca:
It was almost not quite my decision. So, let me say, first of all, there were offers from the U.S., [including] IBM and so on that asked me for interviews. But my wife then, she was sure to go back to this, said, “Well, I have been here for four years. Now, I want to go back.” Brazilians like to be in Brazil, especially if you're from Rio. You like to be in Rio. Also, family was very important. So, I decided to go back to Brazil. Once I decided to go back there was really no industry that could provide me with interesting work. I did go back to Embratel. I still had my position there. I stayed on leave for the whole time.
I came back and talked to the head of the department, a very nice guy. We discussed, and he told me what he could offer. Even, he said, “Well, I don't see I can offer you work which will challenge you in what you just learned, and eventually.” I agreed with him. Eventually, I resigned from the company once I got a position at the university. The only place I could use, really use what I learned in Brazil at that time was at the university. Even today, there are not many companies who do high-level work, RNG work, that can accommodate Ph.Ds. from the universities. That's a problem in Brazil. That's miserable. If you are graduating a lot of people with higher degrees, and they don't find jobs, but there not often jobs in - -. So, - - it was a—so, what they do in federal universities, they have a competition or exam. So, there were two openings in good universities in the south of Brazil. There were seventy-six candidates.
Hellrigel:
Wow, that's tough.
de Marca:
Yes. But still, seventy-two guys with a Ph.D. would be rejected, so that shows that we have a problem in the country. How can we develop industry and motivate industry, challenge industry, that they need for the production people with higher degrees? So, that's a problem. At that time, it was even worse.
Hellrigel:
You mentioned your wife, so you got married during graduate school?
de Marca:
No, I got married just before I left to the United States, so going to university was kind of our honeymoon trip. Actually, it was not USC. It was in Texas. The Fulbright offer required some adaptation period for six weeks, so I spent six weeks in Austin, at UT [The University of Texas at Austin]. [It was a] very interesting period [because I] got to meet people from different cultures. It was very - - from Fulbright people from different countries going there, and so I got married just two days before we traveled and got back to Brazil.
Hellrigel:
When you were in graduate school was your wife allowed to work in the U.S.?
de Marca:
It was interesting. She was [allowed to work] because I didn't have an F Visa. I had a J visa from the Fulbright scholarship, a J1 or J2. She was able to first work at the Portuguese department of USC as a secretary. She was doing Letters in Brazil, but she interrupted this school to come. She had just one year. Then she was accepted to do psychology at USC. She graduated in psychology at USC, but when she came back to Brazil, she had to do some of the discipline. Eventually, she was able to practice psychology.
Hellrigel:
She earned a master's or a Ph.D.?
de Marca:
No, just an undergraduate degree in psychology. Then in Brazil, she had to do another year because psychology is also a five-year degree, so she had to do not really a year, but also that. Then she got the degree of psychology that you can practice in Brazil, like an engineer can also do, too. It's not like a bachelor's degree. It's something more than that. It's a professional degree.
University of Campinas, Bell Labs
Hellrigel:
You go back to Brazil, and you get this very coveted appointment at the university, so what was that transition like going from the U.S. back to Brazil? Now, you're going to start your teaching career, so you have to set a lab up?
de Marca:
It was challenging because you're not trained to teach, so that's something you have to learn almost by doing. Let me explain. First, I went to a different university. There was no position open in Rio at the university I wanted. So, I went to another very good university, the University of Campinas, UniCamp, as it's called.
Today, it's the second-best university in Brazil. Actually, when I worked there, the Catholic university was at number four. UniCamp was very good. I had a major grant with a telecommunications research center of this national holding company of telecommunications. That center was just starting too, maybe two years old, and then we had a very good grant on digital transmissions, something I worked on. That was very good. At least I had an interesting project to work on. - - some papers in. Then my wife kept complaining because she wanted to go back to Rio. I'm like okay. But then, there was the Catholic university, so I moved to Catholic University, finally, one year and two months later. I stayed there for thirty-some years. Then, again, teaching was always a challenge because some people have it easier than others. Generally, you have to learn how to deal with students and people. It's very pleasant and I learned a lot, but it's also challenging.
Hellrigel:
You stayed there for almost thirty-six years.
de Marca:
Yes, I did. I still have good connections there. I still talk to the president of the university, and sometimes he appoints me to some things. It's very near my home, too. It's like a ten-minute walk. Yes.
Hellrigel:
Oh, just down the road.
de Marca:
Yes. It's half a mile, a little more than half a mile, so it's easy for me to get there. I still have an office there, but now, I'm going to empty it because, I mean I have a lot, and nobody can go to university for more than one year now due to the pandemic. So, let people use it. Let other people use it.
Hellrigel:
During your career, I misspoke earlier, you were there almost forty years. You're teaching.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
You run a lab. Is the lab funded by these telecom companies? In the U.S., the labs have to get grants.
de Marca:
Yes, my whole lab, it's like a department. In my university because we have a very different, and a very good telecommunications group, we kind of separated from the electrical engineering department, administratively. We students, but formally, we advise them, we - - for them, and our money was separate. We did have a very big grant from this telecommunications research center from TeleBraz, the holding company.
Hellrigel:
This is that group called the CETUC?
de Marca:
Yes. The Center for Studies in Telecommunications of the Catholic University. They have a very good, big grant. Also, later on, I had my own big grant. I had a big grant with seniors, and I had a separate big grant with them for wireless communications. At some point, this overall grant for the department terminated, so then we had to go for separate, smaller, more-focused grants. I also had some—and. Also, early in my career, I decided to do other things, other than teaching/research. Like, I did IEEE, and first of all, I was thirty-one and I became associate dean of the engineering science for the university.
Hellrigel:
Why did you want to get into administration? Some people run away from it.
de Marca:
That's a good question. I think I felt I had some [aptitude]. I mean the guys invited me and the dean invited me. He was a guy from informatics, he knew me, and he said I had a knack for that. I was taking charge of all the projects for the whole center, and negotiations in the - -.
Hellrigel:
And you had the skill.
de Marca:
Yes, that's what he felt. Then, he became a vice president, and I became a director for the university research. The name of the title was director for development. Then, right after, the vice president came, and I stayed there with a slightly different title. It was like associate vice president for research. I did all these when I was between thirty-two and thirty-six. A lot of things I did, I kind of was one of the strong professional persons, let's see what I want to call, for the creation of the society Brazil, like a communication and scientific society. We created a society, and I was the founding president. I was re-elected. So, again I was thirty-two, thirty-three years old. That created another part of my career, so that research, and then administration. Eventually, I was appointed to be a member. This is national, like NSF, and then a committee.
Hellrigel:
Right, the National Research Council.
de Marca:
Yes, that's right. They are a committee on electrical engineering and - - engineering at that time. These are the people that are selecting the grants that people are applying for, selecting the grants. So, I got there, and I was elected chair of that committee, of this selection committee for funding for the whole country in electrical engineering, and so on. I was re-elected, so I stayed two years as chair. In the meantime, they created a committee, a council of chairs of all the committees, meaning mathematics, humanities, medicine, and all these things. All the chairs sat together. It's funny because one of the ladies was chair of one of the committees in human science. She was later the First Lady of the country. Her husband was elected president, and he was president for eighteen years. She was very nice. Anyway, she and others elected me to chair this council of chairs, and because of that, I have a seat at the CAP - -, a special council of boards.
Hellrigel:
So, you're the president's right-hand person on certain subjects.
de Marca:
Well, the president, but I was the guy chairing the council of chairs of people.
Hellrigel:
Okay.
de Marca:
First, I chaired electrical engineering, but then I became chair of the council of chairs that select the grants. This chair had a seat on the board of - -, so I became - -. Soon, one of those guys became president of the - -. Then, he invited me to be the director, so, now I am above this chair of scientific director of this organization. I was getting involved in this very much, but then I decided to go back to science. I stayed as director for one year, and I had a big budget with over $200 million in it. Then someone invited me to go to Bell Labs to work with the best group in the world in speech - - human - - and so on. - - or sometimes there was a major—
By the way, I didn't say one thing that probably has to do with IEEE. When I was finishing my Ph.D. degree, my advisor took me to what's called communication theory workshop. There was a very distinguished group of professionals there, so I got to know very famous people. One of them was Bob Rotti. You've probably heard of Bob Rotti.
Hellrigel:
Bob Rotti?
de Marca:
Yes, Bob Rotti. We talked, and somehow, he liked me. At that time, in 1986, he was actually Bell Labs director for one of the areas, and he said, well, if you want to come Bell Labs, I'll help you. I stayed three months, just a summer, like a summer appointment as a scientific consultant. I got to know a lot of people. I enjoyed it, but it was short. When I was director of that place in—let's just say the director of that place, meaning that was not in Rio. It was in Brazilia, that to commute from Rio to Brazilia, stayed in Rio. Then, these people invited me for a longer appointment at Bell Labs, and I decided to accept. As a scientist, I cannot lose the opportunity of working in the best group in the world in my field, so I went. I resigned from that seat in Brazilia, and came to New Jersey, lived in - -, and it was a great time, too.
Hellrigel:
You were at Bell Labs for one year?
de Marca:
Yes. A little bit over one year. It was thirteen months, something like that. Actually, that was, in my opinion, very important for my career in IEEE because I met a lot of people.
Hellrigel:
Some of the “big fish” [important, powerful, and influential people].
de Marca:
Yes. Fred Andrews [Frederick T. Andrews] and some others. We had dinners, and that was good. From then on, I started to increase my participation at IEEE. I became a vice president and so on. So, I don't know, I guess you have questions about that.
Hellrigel:
Yes. That's our next topic, because I notice you spent time at the AT&T Bell Labs, and then you did some visiting professorships in Italy and Canada. You spent some time in Paris and UCLA. Were these summer appointments for three months, or were they for one year?
de Marca:
No, they're shorter, a little bit longer because I had to teach a course.
So, - - in Italy, - - for test group in communications. - - all, but they're in - -, so it was very good to work with them. I have met them at some conferences, and we started to collaborate. Similarly, at UCLA, it was a very nice person, he died a couple years ago, professor from Italy, and very big contribution to internet, - -. And, so, we had - - at UCS. He was applying for a job at USC when I was a grad student. So, we met, went back to Brazil. He eventually got a job at UCLA, and we kept in touch. I already developed a research collaboration with him. So, - - and stay with me two weeks, go back to Brazil, then go back again. - - NSF, and also part of Brazil National Research Council. So, that was a chief of - - corporation. - - staying there for some period, but keep going back--
Hellrigel:
For projects.
de Marca:
Yes, for projects. Yes. Eventually, I had someone there. There was also someone in Germany. It was similar, a little bit similar, in Toronto in the middle of winter there. That was bad, winter in Toronto.
Hellrigel:
It could be worse; you could be in Alaska.
de Marca:
Yes, so we could. Again, that is funded by the collaboration between - - and the Brazil National Research Council. In Paris, I had a former student of mine who was doing a Ph.D. there, so I went to visit. In Paris, it's more difficult. People in Paris are not very talkative, and they—it's funny, because - - there, and have to be pretty much - -. It was like 9:30, nobody was there. They all have late - -. - -.
Hellrigel:
Different lifestyles and schedules.
de Marca:
Yes. So, over the years I acquired this culture awareness that people difference and how to deal with people and how to be friends with people, friends, and I think that's one of the major benefits from my- - at IEEE is that now I have friends all over the world, and friends that respect you, from what your work and so that's very good. So, it means, okay, if I go somewhere, usually I know someone there, which is a nice person, we work together. That's something I enjoy very much.
Hellrigel:
At this point, you go back to the Catholic University. Do you have graduate students that you are mentoring?
de Marca:
Oh, yes. I had graduates and undergraduates because I have these research grants. I need the work force. So, I had them not only to do their own degrees, but I also have people doing sort of trainee, training - - in the projects, and also doing their final project for their graduation. So, at some point, had - - groups training people, and especially wireless, because wireless was a new thing, and I had some good funds for that from Siemens and from other groups. So, I was able to attract good students, graduate students.
Hellrigel:
In 2016, you left the university, so employment-wise what have you been up to since then? Are you a consultant, a science consultant?
de Marca:
Lots of things. Some are not paid, but very interesting. Until last month, I was actually in charge of engineering and computer science for the—there's a state of - -, FAPERJ, and that's similar to say the National Council, or NSF, for the whole country. It's just for the state. I was in charge of all the engineering funding, all engineering, mechanical, civil, and so on. So, I had like eight people working with me. It was good, interesting, and we had some interesting projects.
Hellrigel:
Today, I had a meeting with the entrepreneur program people at IEEE. Have you had any interaction with starting your own companies, or any interest in that?
de Marca:
I thought, but I didn't go forward with some people doing some internet things. But eventually, I didn't go forward. I continue to be involved in these R&D. I was actually appointed by the president of Brazil, to be a member of the National Council. This is different from the—this is a group of people. It's the National Council of Technology of - -. It's chaired by the president of the country. It's twelve ministers. Then, it has some people within societies and people that do the research. I was one of those people that do engineering, another person in medicine, one in humanities, one in mathematics, and there was more.
Hellrigel:
This keeps coming back to your diplomatic skills.
de Marca:
Yes, sure. Some of those meetings were hard to swallow, but it's okay. And part of the - -. I also became a member of the - -. You remember I talked about the corporate research center of the Brazilian holding company, telecommunications, or CPQD?
Now, I'm a member of their board. That was more interesting because now they're much more a technology-based company. They develop services, products, so it's a normal company, - - not for profit. So, I'm a member of their board, too, and that's an interesting part. People on the board there are very nice, very good. There's a former president of Telephonic in Brazil and some very high-level executives of Embraer, the airplane company, so it's a very select group. We learned a lot, and it's good, so that's the other thing I'm doing with my time. Now, I'm also a member of the scientific type of council, one of the major federal labs in IT, information technology. I keep getting invited and do things like that, in addition to my continued participation in IEEE, so eventually, my time is kind of full.
Hellrigel:
Yes. You keep busy, and that's what some of the people I talked to say; it is good to keep busy. They say, well, I'm retired, but the plate is just as full, it just shifted. They say, I'm still very busy, but at different things.
de Marca:
Of course, I'm not working only for money. I do have other things that I am paid for. But the rest is an interest to use your knowledge to help and to learn more in the field. So, that's the thing that's very nice. That's why. And you talk about - - in IEEE. That thing was created when I was actually president. I created a group that officially led to this activity. I'm very happy that people in time carried that along. It has been very successful. I think I should - - from - - of doing that job. That's an area which I feel proud of having been part of.
Hellrigel:
We're going to take the jump to IEEE after one more question.
de Marca:
Okay.
Patents
Hellrigel:
I read that you had some patents that are related to your work at Bell Labs and NEC. How many patents do you have?
de Marca:
Not that many. I think there's probably - - from Bell Labs, I think, two from NEC.
Hellrigel:
These are owned by the company.
de Marca:
Two patents from NEC. Yes, they're all owned by the company, and they do a patent in the U.S., a patent Japan, and a patent Europe, so the number of patents is awkward because sometimes it's the same patent being submitted and approved in different countries.
Hellrigel:
This is mobile communications, so that's cell phones?
de Marca:
Yes. I did some work in wireless communications at Bell Labs, early wireless communication, and old systems. I developed some ways of representing signaling beats, and eventually, Bell Labs decided to patent that. They own the patent. I'm the author, but they own the patent. It is similar to NEC. [However,] NEC is better because they pay me some money for that, but the patent still belongs to them.
Hellrigel:
Yes, that's the way it is and even here in universities you usually have to sign an agreement giving them ownership of the patents.
de Marca:
Yes.
IEEE society membership, Eta Kappa Nu
Hellrigel:
You are an IEEE Life Fellow. You became an IEEE Fellow in 1995. You're also a member of Eta Kappa Nu and Sigma Xi.
de Marca:
Yes. It's before Eta Kappa Nu became an IEEE group.
Hellrigel:
So, Eta Kappa Nu was from USC?
de Marca:
Yes, Sigma Xi and Eta Kappa Nu. There's one more organization, Phi Beta Kappa, something like that. The third one also. Those organizations.
Hellrigel:
You're very active in IEEE going back to 1970. You got involved with IEEE to read the literature and to meet people. Why have you remained a member all these years?
de Marca:
Well, I enjoy it. I mean I enjoy being part of this IEEE. I think it's a great organization. Not as good as— the world is changing. So, is that, but actually, I got more involved. I had a paper in1978, and another at our conference in 1981. In 1981, I started to meet people, that later became leaders in communication science. In 1985, there's a guy from Germany that I don't recall how I met him, but I think one of the conferences, and he was a sort of a - - nowadays for Europe and Middle East, and - - my name of - -, at that time was a, he's a very famous educator from - - Schwartz. He appointed me this director or chair of the committee for Latin America. That's when I started participating more in everything, [including] committees and the board meetings, just to see what was going on, and to keep meeting more and more people. Of course, being able to mingle and talk with the leaders in my field, the people that really make the most important contribution in the development of engineering and science, was great. Where could I find them and just talk to them? So, that was very appealing to me. And, also, I said, well, this is a worthwhile organization. I should help to further it and to improve it. I started—there were three - -, particularly at that time in the - - meeting. The organization at that time was pretty much a U.S. organization.
Hellrigel:
Yes.
de Marca:
Similar to the U.S., people were very reluctant to open up. They didn't trust people, especially from South America. So, I had to appeal to that.
Hellrigel:
You had to keep knocking at the proverbial door?
de Marca:
Yes. It took a while. That was not easy at all. It took a lot of time, ten years, maybe, to really get them to get things to improve. Then, I went up in the ranks, and became a vice president, and that made it easier. My perception of - - was not—sometimes, you had to bring people who, especially some staff, they are good staff, but they look at mobilization from the perspective of corporation. Mobilization sometimes for people is just maybe to sell more products to other parts of the world. In my view, okay, you end up doing that, but what you want is to bring people from other parts of the world to contribute to those products that you want to develop and those services - -, to get the perspective, the knowledge, the culture to develop them. Naturally, this will help later on - - distributed in the - -. So, that's something which had to push gradually, like having more conferences outside U.S. People go, no, that's dangerous, or they won't make money, but eventually, that was not the case. You could be successful in other places, and so it was an interesting time. So, that was why - - first ten years of - - in actually the society of leadership, and—the reason I'm still a member, because I know so much about the organization, and I think it's such an important organization for the world, that it's important to be a member, contribute.
Hellrigel:
Now, you're a member of the IEEE Communications Society and the IEEE Computer Society. In the past, were you a member of other IEEE societies?
de Marca:
I was a member of data technology. I was a member of the IEEE Society on Social Implications on Technology (SSIT), VTS (IEEE Vehicular Technology Society), and computer science (IEEE Computer Society). They were pretty close to my work. And, social implication had to broaden humanitarian technology.
IEEE Humanitarian activities
Hellrigel:
Yes, I've noticed that recently that's become something that's taken more of your time, the humanitarian technology initiatives.
de Marca:
Yes, that's an interest. My first involvement was when I was vice president of Technical Activities. Then the - - came and proposed that I should do something in humanitarian technology. And then, later I learned - -, who was president at that time, also had a big interest in that one. So, I agreed to be one of the chairs, and we did a lot of good work, and it was successful. The initiative got a prize, and I stayed doing some work on humanitarian technology, mostly focused from India. Of course, India has lots of things to work on. My first wife died in 1999, so when I was president elect [in 2013], I was with a different partner. [name?] She's an engineer, and she had a lot of interest in humanitarian technology. She's a person who's always concerned about others, about the poor, and so on. She had a paper accepted in the Global Humanitarian Technology Conference, GHTC. It was held in San Jose, California, and she went there to present the paper. There, she met a lot of people who work in this area, some very interesting people, including one guy who was born in Brazil, and now lives in the Bay Area. When I became the 2014 IEEE President, she had this experience in humanitarian technology, and she came to me, and said, look, we have to invest on this. This is an important thing for the world. IEEE actually has all the knowledge, and it can help people in different ways. So, fine, I said. And, she said, well, I met all these good people in San Jose. I did something that very week.
I had a long, two-hour session at the Board of Directors, all on humanitarian technology. I invited all these good people to present their ideas. Eventually, I was able to twist the arm of another actually past president, Michael Lightner, to help with the new incarnation of this humanitarian technology at IEEE. Let's revamp it. Let's do it and broaden its scope. We started in two areas, assistive technology for people with impairments and recovering from natural disasters. There are a lot of good things that we can do on these topics. Lightner did a good job, and we had some very good people that came and that are still participating now. I was able to approve some money, I think it was a million dollars, to push this activity.
We mixed the old people that were working on this with some new people that were presenting papers at this conference, and people from the - - society had some - - some cities, - - cities and communities. We put them all together, and we arranged the whole how the organization of humanitarian technology, and that did work very well, and then, until now, it's going well.
When I was IEEE President, in Brazil, I visited a school for kids and people that are physically - -, and we brought some people to our IT with people that develop mouse, mice, for people who could not move their hands very well. So, it is - -. That's why my —and I still say that we can make an impact if managed properly in some areas and use all this great expertise we have in IEEE to help people all over the world.
Hellrigel:
Would you say, then, that humanitarian technology and programs are your focus now in IEEE or am I misreading your activities?
de Marca:
No, I have not engaged only in humanitarian technology. Now, I have some other things I'm doing. But I keep contact with people, and particularly this guy who was born in Brazil that keeps writing to me and to my current wife. They talk. Maybe I will go back to do more things for them. That's very interesting work. I see they can do a good job. I have something else to say.
Hellrigel:
Yes, sir.
de Marca:
Going back, at that point, also, I brought - - the part of the committee will do, HCC. The president of this social implication technology society. But I felt if you had a society like that in a group, this society will play a major role in humanitarian technology. So, since then, I've been participating a lot. The lady left, and - - participated - -. Her name was Lauren Jacobs. Now, I think she married is in Lauren Indelsoff. But they - - another president of the HSC, - - technology, became chair of the committee on humanitarian technology, Paul Cunningham. Their involvement continued, so it's good. That was a good way to add value to that society.
IEEE Communications Society
Hellrigel:
And, you were very active in the IEEE Communications Society, serving as the president, 2000-2001. How did you become president? Did you work in the different offices? It's a lot of responsibility to be president.
de Marca:
Yes, it was an interesting time because we had one of the internet bubbles burst, in 2000. Then, we had 9-11, 2001. And interesting that then actually was having - -, and I was very concerned about that. I even wrote an article in a IEEE Communication Society’s magazine saying that IEEE is strangling the golden geese because they are losing money. They're approving budgets and so on. At that time, we had a very good representation from - - society and people from industry. It was already starting to go down because the communications were changing a lot from the Bell Labs to the Facebook and some other types of—that was for the new communications industry, right.
I became president [of the IEEE Communications Society] because I went through the ranks. I've held two vice president positions. One of them was for international affairs. Later, I did away with that vice president because I felt the society was global enough that it didn't need the international affairs vice president. We need directors for different regions of the world, so I supported changing that. Then there were some people that trusted me, I guess. One of them was a first, also a president from outside U.S., called Maurizio Decina from Italy, and then there was this guy, Steve Weinstein was also president before me. Great guy from Bell Labs, worked - -, and also met. We were at that same communication workshop of 1978, and he liked me. He said, well, I became like my mentor - -. Great guy. Eventually, I ran for president, and the first time I lost to a U.S. person. Then, I was learning more things to become a communication expert volunteer and a successful one. You have to be resilient, and you have to persevere. You lost once, fine. You can run again if you want and if you feel it's worth it. I did, and I won and became president. I was very happy because during my term as president, the society achieved the highest level of members ever. Today, it's like half or less of what it used to be.
Hellrigel:
Why is that? Did society membership decrease because industry dropped out?
de Marca:
As I said, yes, communications changed a lot, and the society did not do a good job of attracting people from new industries. It's not easy because the current industry is not so keen on sharing knowledge, discussing knowledge. They're much more private, and then, they don't see the benefit of participating in IEEE. When I was president, we reached 62,000 members.
Hellrigel:
Wow.
de Marca:
Today, [society membership is] 25,000, 26,000, 27,000. So, that was—and, also, we were able to start activity with T - -, which are now very important, like optical networks, wireless communications. We invested in those topics, and that was very important too. And, communication society, of course, internet—the Communications Society has always been—I'm not sure you know this, sort of - - layer. But it' s technology, like modulation and, things that - - operate in transmission layer, transmission area. But not what goes above it, which you call protocols and - - that use that - - layer to provide the service now. So, we had to - - get more people of these top areas interested in - -, so that will start— Until now, it's a big challenge. Until now, most of - - are in - - layer, although most of the money and the important work now is - - these higher layers - -. Service layers, and so, people perceive that, but it's hard to change from - - or change significantly the society’s interests. We have been trying. We started in 2000. We're still not there yet.
Hellrigel:
You are still active in the IEEE Communications Society?
de Marca:
Definitely, yes, I am. I am still a member of the board. So, I guess I'm going to have to leave it sometime, but I was counting that - - volunteers leading some sort of activities there for thirty-six years now. So, since 19- -.
Hellrigel:
You passed the baton to the next generation?
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
You are also very active in Technical Activities.
de Marca:
Right.
Hellrigel:
You were vice president in 2008.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
I see your career in the volunteer world, from a society to an OU [operating unit]. How did you like being vice president of Technical Activities? What do you think were your major accomplishments?
de Marca:
Well, as you should see in your papers, after I was president, I was a member of the IEEE Board of Directors, and I was very active there. I went to a lot of - -. I tried to really participate and partner with all the directors to develop new activities, and to improve the - - documents. Then I became secretary, and there I created the governance for meetings. I'm not sure it's a good idea I did, but it's there. I did a lot of good work. At that time, it was very formal things, and I decided to raise a by-law review committee group. Then, the next step of course in my career would be Vice President of Technical Activities. I was also active as a society president, a division director, and s a chair of some committees. I thought, what is the next step? So, I decided to run for VP, and I was successful. That was a surprise. Again - - guy from, from U.S. It's not an easy thing for a guy from Brazil.
Hellrigel:
Is there that regional competition?
de Marca:
No, but you have to understand that there are only—I don't know, at that time, let's say 4000 votes in Brazil, and there were - - U.S. So, it was not so easy for a guy from Brazil.
Hellrigel:
The numbers.
de Marca:
The votes are small, so that's what I mean when I mention. There's no competition. I like the guy. He also succeeded me. He ran again, and he won. But that’s what it was like to be able to win an election, both president, as well as VP. Both had worldwide elections. Different, - -, president only consort, and - - for all societies. So, for me, I was very, very happy when I won the election. Remember, the first election, a really big election, is like a competition. Then, I was able to continue doing this. So, this, for me, is an area second - - president from outside U.S. or Canada, North America, and was the first, actually, president, actually the first VP of - - elected from outside North America. Because the other one was before they had elections. It was appointed, - -. And, so, - - president, so I—this, I'm actually proud. I'm not competing with anyone - -. I like people everywhere. It's just that, in terms of—you get for competition that you are like—you're not favorite at all, and then to win--
Hellrigel:
Well, and the recognition and that you were on the audit committee, executive committees, and, and sort of high-profile committees that reflects your accomplishments in IEEE and technology, too.
de Marca:
I was chair of that committee, too.
Hellrigel:
Yes. So then, other people respect your efforts and your knowledge.
de Marca:
That's true.
IEEE Region 9
Hellrigel:
You have also been around as IEEE is making the transition in membership when almost more than 50 percent of the members are from outside the U.S., or shall we say Regions 1 through 7. While membership is increasing in Region 9, the big growth is coming from Region 10.
de Marca:
Yes. A lot in Region 9, they don't vote. It's a good transition. It is the future.
Hellrigel:
Yes, that's always the question. When we try to write the history of elections you try to figure out who votes and what is their IEEE Region. When you look at the organization, IEEE, well, any organization, even professional history organizations and consider the number of members versus the number who vote, you will notice that not many people vote. Some of the elections are so close that another fifty votes, or even just a few votes, would have changed the outcome.
de Marca:
That's how it goes, I guess. It's sometimes really amazing. We've lost that same election. But, going back to one of your questions, if you have time, it's hard to say. There are so many small things that you do, proving the way people participate in conferences. There was no single technology - - this one - - today was actually - - was the chair of the committee that appointed this - - and this became a project. I tried a lot to work with the other boards, but there is some competition among boards; [however], they start to make shifts and to do work together, when you initiate them. At that time, - - and standards, and - -. So, we can try to work together and create new communities. For example, at that time, we created a committee RFID, this- - radio frequency - -, then fire some - -. Have you ever heard of RFID?
Hellrigel:
No.
de Marca:
Well, it's a sensor and a transmitter in a small device, and there are some good use. When you go through the - -, you have a - -
Hellrigel:
Oh, the sensor, yes.
de Marca:
Yes, okay. There are lots of them used in everything now. We created a technical committee for that, so there was some progress. Also, one most important is at that time, - - was dysfunctional, too big. I made sure that the meetings worked fine, always ending on time, and everything - - make decisions, because it's a big group, like sixty-three people, so it's - - many. But - -, if it's big, it can work. It worked well, so let's make sure we have everything working.
Hellrigel:
Did you follow Robert's Rules of Order.
de Marca:
Of course. That's something I had to learn. Coming from Brazil, nobody ever had heard about Robert’s Rules, but eventually, that was important to know those rules well. Until now I am known for my knowledge of Robert’s Rules.
Hellrigel:
Yes, I read that. So, does that mean that you sit in the meetings and say out of order?
de Marca:
I tell the chair to say out of order.
Hellrigel:
Oh, okay. You kick them and say that they should rule out of order.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
We have been trying to streamline the History Committee meetings for order and efficiency, especially now that we meet virtually. There is an attempt to bring order and have the structure outlining who can speak, who should be quiet, and how to move business.
de Marca:
Virtual is much more difficult.
Hellrigel:
Yes.
de Marca:
It’s more difficult. For the chair, it's much more difficult in a virtual environment. If I'm sitting next to him physically, I can whisper in his ears, look, this is not going well, but, if you are in a virtual, you have to type. The guy may not read it, so that's not as good. But I learned by using it [Robert’s Rules] that it can be very useful to make the meeting more organized.
Hellrigel:
Yes. As you're being elected to these different posts, such as Division III Director and IEEE secretary, do you nominate yourself, or do your buddies say, hey, you should run for this office? You know, I don't know how the internal politics works.
de Marca:
Well, for vice president and president, they have committees who select candidates. So, someone nominates you, and the committees may or may not like their names. If they don't like their name as a candidate, you may run a petition, but initially, there's a committee which selects the candidates. Same for secretary. You can nominate yourself to that committee, but that committee selects who will go forward. You can encourage them and see if they want, but you start with that point. They nominate, and then there's a committee who go through all the nominations and select from this.
Hellrigel:
I noticed in 2009 there were three gentlemen running for IEEE president elect: Moshe Kam, Joe Lillie, and yourself.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
All three were nominated by the Board of Directors. I don't think there was anybody not nominated. Sometimes, some of the elections had both petition candidates and candidates nominated by the Board.
de Marca:
At that particular time, I should not tell you, because there was an executive session, but, yes, there are some names that came from the nominating committee. We had to make a presentation to the Board and answer questions. Then, at that point, the Board votes, and in that vote, two of us had majority, but the Board decided it would go with three, as opposed to try to resolve - -. I guess they felt the candidates were good, and they decided to go with three. One had been dropped, and this one ran a petition to the members to be included. In that case, the Board decided - - candidates deserved to be candidates, and they accepted three. He won. Elected, that means he won.
Hellrigel:
Yes. Online, I found your 2010 president-elect campaign statement or handout, the two-page document, which was very helpful explaining your IEEE activities up to 2010.
de Marca:
There's one from 2012, I can send you.
Hellrigel:
That one I didn't find.
de Marca:
Okay. I have it.
Hellrigel:
I'm trying to also expand your entry in ETHW [Engineering and Technology History Wiki]. You'll have the oral history entry, and you'll have your biographical entry. I am trying to expand both.
de Marca:
I can send you the 2012. We can see what you can have from that. And, also, I can send a more recent biography unless you want only until 2014.
Hellrigel:
Please send me whatever you have, and then I'll put it together.
de Marca:
Yes. Since then, I was elected to the Commander of the National Order of Science and Technology. That's given from the president of Brazil, and I have to go to the equivalent of the White House to get that.
Hellrigel:
Yes, I noticed you received a couple of awards from the country of Brazil. It must feel good and rewarding to be recognized by your profession and also your country.
de Marca:
Definitely. You asked once I retired and once I completed the term as president and then past president of IEEE, what I started to do. I started to invest more in Brazil. I felt that I could help and that I can provide some expertise or experience to just do things here. I was more in Brazil, kind of more involved in the engineering and doing things for them. So, I decided to be more active here, and I think it's a good contribution, too.
Hellrigel:
Does some of this activity in Brazil deal with STEM education for K-12, pre-university?
de Marca:
Yes. I was not involved in this, but there are some groups doing that. And, actually, we've improved a lot our education and high school education during the last twenty years. Maybe it's happened in the U.S., too, that somehow, the high school went down. So, we do need more involvement.
Hellrigel:
Right. And, also, I used to teach geography at university, and we studied Brazil as a rising economic power, one of the sleeping giants, I think the geographers called it part of the BRIC countries [Brazil, Russia, India, and China], and then it blossomed. And, in terms of economic development, like many other countries, recently it has been a bit of a roller coaster experience. Then, this plague, the COVID pandemic, does not help it.
de Marca:
Yes.
Campaigns for IEEE President, Presidential activities
Hellrigel:
I don't know what the word is, but you're defeated in 2009 and 2010, so what do you decide to do then? Are you going to get back in the competition and run again? You mentioned perseverance, so are you going to get back in the game and run again?
de Marca:
First, I decided to rest for a year or two. Meaning, I didn't want to run again. It's too much work, too much. It really meant a lot of work.
Hellrigel:
Too much travel, too?
de Marca:
Travel a lot. And, so, I said, well, I will reduce my activities and maybe focus again a little bit, on the society-level. But then, I said, well, I still think I have a chance to be elected because I have a lot of things that I did in the society, and I have a good resume. And, so, I think I will try again one more time, and see what happens. I decided to run in 2012, and this time I was successful. Yes, you have to keep persevering. If you believe it's important, and you can make a difference, you have to keep pushing. Of course, if you lose three or four times, it doesn't exist. But I still had a good chance, so I ran again.
Hellrigel:
There's the pattern and it's not uncommon for somebody to run again after their first defeat, even going back to, and I might be mistaken, IEEE President Martha Sloane and others. So, the past twenty-five years or so, since people were nominated or decided to run themselves as a petition candidate, they might not be successful the first time, but they come back a second time and won the election.
de Marca:
Yes. That's right. You can do better in another election
Hellrigel:
During each election cycle, more people get to know you. I've attended some of the virtual candidates' discussions this year, and in 2020, I was in Region 6 and sat in a live session where the candidates spoke and made their pitch. It's a lot of work, but through these presentations more people get to know you beyond your Region or Society. I think that might help the momentum, too.
de Marca:
In 2012, I decided I would use social media better, so I used Facebook and LinkedIn. I did that very well. I think I did it well.
Hellrigel:
Yes, I noticed. LinkedIn, that's how I found you once. You also used Facebook, and I noticed that's common now for candidates to have their Facebook page for their campaign. Can you call it a campaign?
de Marca:
Yes. I was part of the - -. I was allocated to - - to pay, to, to buy some ads in Facebook and LinkedIn and so on, and I wrote to - - in Facebook, I want to target a different audience. And since I know a little bit of the language, so in France and some Tunisia, and whatever, I write in French to them. Some in Spanish, and - - Spanish for them, and so on. So, I did some targeting campaigns. And I got a lot of support from - - people in - -. That was very important, too.
Hellrigel:
You were thinking globally.
de Marca:
Yes. It's a global election, so I had to think globally, not only the U.S., but other countries.
Hellrigel:
Right. How did you feel when you were victorious?
de Marca:
Elated. I was so happy. I mean I was—as one other president said, years ago, being president of IEEE is like being the top guy in the world in your field, or the guy on top of the most important organization in your field. I was really happy. I just couldn't believe it.
Hellrigel:
Then you are part of what I call the triumvirate, Peter Staecker, [2013 IEEE President] yourself, and Howard Michel, [2015 IEEE President]. It is the three Ps: president-elect, president, and past president of IEEE.
de Marca:
Yes, Howard Michel. That's how to say it.
Hellrigel:
We'll get to that triumvirate in a minute. Once you are elected, what did you expect to do? IEEE is a very widespread organization, and it's got all these different organization units and societies, so, as president, what's your agenda?
de Marca:
Well, you have to say what will be your priorities when you are president-elect, otherwise, you won't have time to do anything. While Peter [Staecker] was president, we started to figure out what were the important things that I had to address as president coming after him, and that's [the process] from the year, First, you have to start learning and deciding what you have to do, and you start preparing. People like to use the word - - once. How are you going to do it? And, at that time, there were some issues because the executive director didn't - -, and he sent some of us, because basically he wanted to be the big boss, the president. [are you referring to Jim Pendergast, the executive director who retired in 2018?] His contract said that he was not to be the president, but as a CEO, and that was all - - sort of difficulty. Now, it's - -. Actually, we started this work of defining rules - - when I was president, and now it's very clear that in the, as it should be, - - COO and the - - CEO. But at that time, was a little bit of a problem with that, was something we had to pay attention to. That person is no longer with IEEE, so that's also some help.
Hellrigel:
Right.
de Marca:
Back then you had to do what they wanted to do. For example, I decided early on that I'd like to invest in humanitarian [activities], want to invest in - -. I wanted to invest in the internet, and there was initiative started at that point to get - -, which is leading it.
I also said you had to change how the Young Professionals organization operated because there seemed to be a continuation of being a student, and I think they should focus on being a young professional, not a late student or an old student. You have to develop the young professionals, [early career IEEE members] and I approved some money for them to somewhat change the way they behaved. For example, I felt something which I did want, even as president, is that we need to invest in bringing back industry.
So, I had a committee, which was led by a very distinguished volunteer, Wanda Reder, from industry to try to. Since then, that committee has now become a standing committee, a permanent committee of industry outreach. I had some meetings to understand what industry wants, and why we don't have what they want. Of course, that is too academic. That's something we from academia.
That was not the case when I came into IEEE. IBM, labs, and all these, a lot of their meetings, they participated, and that doesn't happen anymore. So, that's something I tried to address. I should say we addressed some, but not much, and now there are other committees that came and tried to push forward this idea. All these things I start, they should be voted.
I started planning for who should do what from that time. Of course, this relationship with the staff ended up being an important thing, too, that I had to address. [For example], how to evaluate people, and so on; and whether the employees are satisfied and happy with the organization. All these are where to invest our time and money. Again, in the rest of investments, I don't think we're well wise, I'd say. - - spent in developing subsidiaries IEEE around the world, some of them for profit, but that's - - function. I had to worry about a lot of things because that was not only the volunteer side, profits - -, service, and - -. So, that was a big job, but totally full time.
Now, for me this was very different, because I was still based in Brazil. I tried to find an apartment in New York. Eventually, I didn't. I had to do some crazy trips. Like, once I went from Rio to New York to Tokyo, back to Chicago, to Beijing, to Sicily, in one trip, but it was very much worthwhile. I think I was able to carry the flag well. I had several meetings in the - - and with industry leaders. I did pursue a meeting with industry leaders when I traveled. I had that in Asia, for example, and it was good.
Hellrigel:
Is there any one trip that's memorable?
de Marca:
I think there are several. The very first one was to the Middle East. Some people said, well, don't do it. That's not a very good place to be and so on. I did go to Emirates, Jordan, Egypt, and Qatar, and that was very good. I met a lot of people that were very strong and very respected in all these places. In Egypt, it was funny because first of all, I had a dinner and at my table, there were four ministers of the country. There was the president of - - SF, and president of academy of science and industry. It was a big table, and all these ministers were sitting with me.
That same weekend, it was celebrating two years as there was some revolution. They have disposing president. They put this new one, which is till now, the military guy, and we were visiting universities and so on, and industries. Then, the guy from Egypt said look, there's a problem. Tomorrow, there will be some problems because they want to celebrate or criticize and this is not good and your hotel is right next to Tahrir Square, where things happen. So, in that case, what should I do? Eventually, I flew to Luxor, it's a nice place, and I stayed there for a weekend. I came back Sunday night, on the - -. But I was there waiting to take off when there was the news that the bomb had exploded in one of the police stations and some people died. I headed to Luxor. I came back and said, okay, I'm going to stay in the hotel far from Tahrir Square, so I did. But, at some point, I wanted to go there and meet people, and go to the museum, so I started to walk. I took taxis and walked. Then, I came to Tahrir Square, all these things. - - me - -. Then, I tried to - -. I said we had a small place where a foreigner can go through, but I was awfully uncomfortable walking through the square, and so on. So, it was an interesting trip.
Hellrigel:
Do you have any photos?
de Marca:
Oh, I probably have some. I took a picture of that.
Hellrigel:
Maybe you taking a photo wasn't a good idea at that point.
de Marca:
I have one. I took it before I entered the area which was - -.
Hellrigel:
That would be cool to put in the IEEE history.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
We don't get that level of detail from most people. We get, oh, we went to this committee meeting or that committee, but nothing about the human experience. For example, the IEEE people that made the first trip to China are depicted in formal photographs. However, in her oral history Martha Sloane started to talk about the cultural things, which was really fascinating because that is an important part of the story, too. She traveled with some of her family members.
de Marca:
Actually, I went as president elect maybe, and Peter [Staecker, the 2013 IEEE President] was going to a meeting in Kenya, and there are some interesting pictures there.
Hellrigel:
Kenya?
de Marca:
Yes, Kenya. There are some interesting pictures. There was a problem in the airport - - left, so I went to Tanzania by myself and one of the people on staff, but nobody else. They won't come. They will not arrive. Then, the news I got was they will not have arrived tomorrow morning when I arrived. Oh my God, what am I doing here? - - they arrived, - - Kenya was able to get a different connection - - in the morning. There were definitely some interesting trips. Definitely some interesting trips.
Hellrigel:
When you were doing all of these activities on behalf of IEEE, what did your family think? I asked a couple of other people about work-life balance. Most of the time interviewers ask women this question, but they don't ask the guys. First of all, you're traveling to potentially dangerous places, and you travel often.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
I couldn't even count the number of days that you traveled when you were part of the triumvirate; probably hundreds of days.
de Marca:
Yes, definitely, it was 300,000 miles, so I know how much.
Hellrigel:
In one year, 300,000 miles?
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
So, you didn't need an apartment in New York. You could just live in the airports.
de Marca:
That's right. I must say my daughter didn't like it at all. She keeps telling me, until today, that I didn't pay so much attention to the family and that I keep traveling and so on. So, I didn't - - then, but she now tells me that she is.
Hellrigel:
You have one daughter?
de Marca:
Yes, one daughter and three grandchildren. My daughter's a medical doctor. She's a medical doctor, an endocrinologist. She's a director of a hospital here in Brazil.
Hellrigel:
Oh, she's busy.
de Marca:
Yes, she is, with this pandemic, yes. And, she has three kids, one boy and twin girls.
Hellrigel:
Are any of them going to be an engineer?
de Marca:
I think the boy will. I think the girls, so far, like to follow their mother as a doctor, a medical doctor.
There is an interesting trip I should tell you about. On September 11th, I was in New Jersey going to meetings and discussing this problem with finance. I was reading about the golden geese. That was on September 9th. On September 10th, I was in Newark at 7:00 p.m. It was my last look at the Twin Towers, and, because I had a scheduled meeting of consultants in Italy starting, I think, on September 13th, 12th. It was in the morning, I think, September 11th was Friday. I may be wrong. It was September 10th in Newark Airport, and I was looking at the Twin Towers. Then, I flew and arrived at Venice, where the meeting was going to be. We met the guys from Telecom Italia. They gave me a ticket to the - - in Venice - -. I go there, come out, and there are some lines in the phone booths. At that time, there was not much wireless. I came back to my hotel, and then I got a call from an Italian guy. Turn on TV. The world is falling apart. Then, it was a very difficult period. TeleCom Italia put up some sort of a command post, trying to figure out where were the volunteers that were flying to my meeting. I tried to reach my family, but they didn't know where I was, exactly. [They knew] that I went through New York to Italy, but they didn't know the exact timing and which airports I was out. That was a really interesting time for me. I got stuck in Venice for a week, no flights. Not a bad place to be stuck. It was a terrible first day, trying to figure out where people were and what the hell. So, who was flying where? Of course, I canceled the meeting. Then I followed the suggestion of some Americans, and I scheduled the meeting two weeks later in New York. Try to get to New York, and they were stopping cars. We were in Times Square, of all places; and noise in the hotel, with people always fighting and people having funeral ceremonies. It was an interesting time, to say the least. But it was okay. Some people were very happy to have the meeting in New York; the staff, and so on that came in and supported people in the U.S. that were having the meeting there.
Hellrigel:
Yes, that was a really weird time.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
When it happened, I don't know how much of the dust and other stuff hit the IEEE office at 3 Park Avenue because that debris went quite a bit up town.
de Marca:
At that time, we didn't. At that time, they had an option on a place for us very close to United Nations. That place was too difficult to get to.
Hellrigel:
Oh, oh, okay. Way up. Okay.
de Marca:
Yes. We are in - - Center. It's a small Square called - - Square, and that's where they have the UN [United Nations]. It is a little bit touched, too.
Hellrigel:
Wow. So, you've had some interesting experiences in Egypt and that part of the world during the great revolutions, or the more recent revolutions
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
When you're the president of IEEE, is there anything else that you wanted to do that you didn't get to do? Many of the things [issues and topics] that you talk about IEEE is still dealing with today, like the young professionals. I do some work with them and the Rising Stars Conference. In addition, the whole industry and academia issue is still relevant, and I hear about the issue, and perhaps tense, at nearly every conference I attend. I hear about that, the tension. I also hear about the relationship between staff and volunteers. I don’t know if you tried to solve other issues.
de Marca:
I think you cannot do much in one year. Even in three years you still cannot [do much]. But I think I did start. Some of them came to fruition later on, even some of these things have obviously gone too far. I was also chair of - - committee, and that thing moved along and became a very important part of the—. I started that, the new incarnation, and that went forward very well and has worked well. So, some things you do will—. It's a big organization, so it’s very difficult. Nowadays, I think there's a lot of problems, and I don't know how to solve them, and maybe I won't.
First of all, because the world is always changing, people are getting more and more aggressive, that's also impacting IEEE. So, more and more now, you see meetings where people shout and are very aggressive, and how do you call it? I don't like to use what transport - - ago. That's not IEEE I know. And I use some—so, people are very cautious, cordial, and there was a lot of comradery, and now you see a lot of people who there for the meetings, they, they get - -. It's even worse now being virtual, of course.
Hellrigel:
Right.
de Marca:
It's just a really fighting for which order, and sometimes for issues that you don't understand. They don't have order even with Robert’s Rules of Order, they don't use proper manners, and you see a lot of them forming almost like police club parties to get things done. That's not how it should be. It should be everyone working for the organization to make it better. But I see much more of this environment, and that's - -, especially. There are people going to the meetings having personal agendas, and they get together to get something approved that favors that group. It's not a police club party in the country. I don't think that has a place in IEEE, but I don't know how to reverse that, especially the world being in such turmoil. I think also that volunteers today are not - -, common. In my opinion, some of them are not true volunteers. They all participate to get personal benefits in their career because academia was brownie points for - -.
So, when they go to the meetings, they want to get what they think is good for their career, as opposed to what's good for the organization. And, so, in my opinion, that's not being a true volunteer because you’re there to further your personal agenda as opposed to the organization.
Now, that has become quite worse over the years, the last ten years, and I don't know how to solve that. It's bad. That's not how I feel it should be.
Hellrigel:
So, do you think this is a generational difference? Do you think the younger ones are getting rowdier, or is it some of the older members, too?
de Marca:
Older members, too. I think that they are motivated by all these fights in the world for different things, and it could be some fights are good, but the way you do it sometimes is not the way it's a good thing. There are fights for everything now, or all this shift in equalities. Actually, inequality is an interesting thing, but the way people look at this from the U.S. perspective is different from what people look from other countries. But, so, that's interesting, and it makes it more difficult. For example, there was one guy who was very upset, trying to get Tom [last name?] to have a resolution on Black Lives Matter.
Instead, I had a statement for the press, saying that IEEE is against any inequality and so on. He wanted definitely to write to Support Black Lives Matter, and he lost. He was so aggressive, taking actions again to bring it back, again and again, so it’s unpleasant.
A bigger issue, an important issue, it's true. In the world, - - creating problems within IEEE from - - has written statement, saying, well, we are against all of these. This has not - -. There's no room for this type of behavior in IEEE. Now, support to a particular - -, that's a different story.
I think all these things happening in the world affect, but most of all, what's also affects is the pressure on academics to push their career forward. And that's also true in China, for example, nowadays, and so they try to—
This also is impacting how we do our work, and how people behave, and that's not good. We need to try to go back to more congenial meetings. It's a challenge. I don't know how to do it. I have no solution; except we have to all work together for that.
Hellrigel:
Yes. In the 1970s, some of these questions came up, in terms of politics with the U.S. and in part that fostered the creation of a distinct spin-off called IEEE-USA, which gets into lobbying in the United States. Over the years, in similar ways some members have asked IEEE to take a stand on diversity, but maybe not on particular issues.
de Marca:
It's fine, and you should be, but make sure everybody feels comfortable.
And that's - -. But we have to, and that's policy. We've - - in the way people approach what they should be a volunteer participation, versus a participation to enhance their careers of the group of people, friends and so on. And that will be also an effect of different cultures. Different cultures look at this in different ways. Maybe that's inevitable, and we have to live with that because people live differently. There's been this idea of volunteering, meaning - - and so on, but that's something that’s not clear cut.
Hellrigel:
No. I know I kept you for a long time. And, I have a couple more questions.
de Marca:
I'm talking too much. Go ahead.
Hellrigel:
No, no. You're supposed to talk. It's your time. But, I forgot, when I was talking about IEEE Fellows, you were elected an IEEE Fellow in 1995, and one of the questions I like to ask is where were you, and how did you find out?
de Marca:
I was in Rio, and I was in—I mean my - - gave me some gift, so, it was really amazing. This was really my first major achievement professionally because this is a very, very important accomplishment of your work, and that's something I probably never felt I could achieve. IEEE has given a lot of opportunities to achieve things which I never felt I could reach, being a fellow, being the IEEE president, consulting, and the IEEE Communications Society president. These are things that never crossed my mind. Being a fellow, a series of major commendations that I value, still very small number of people that are fellows. One way, through fellow, you become equal to some very, very important people in your profession, and that was what I felt. I felt elated. So, that's really--
Hellrigel:
Currently, I think there are about 3300 IEEE Life Fellows and more than 7000 IEEE Fellows.
de Marca:
No, no, under 3000 must be the number of fellows, and 5000 must be probably smaller. But I may be wrong.
Hellrigel:
It is a rare group.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
Then you become a life fellow, because of the number of years you are an IEEE member plus your age.
de Marca:
Yes. It is supposed to add up to 100 based on your age, plus the number of years you are a member.
Hellrigel:
Yes, 100. Right. Then you get all the perks of being a life fellow, that I think they don't charge the basic membership dues anymore.
de Marca:
That's right. You don't pay anymore. That's a good thing.
Career reflections, IEEE Milestones, COVID, closing remarks
Hellrigel:
Right. You've also received an award for service {the 1998 IEEE Communications Society Donald W. McLellan Meritorious Service Award] from the IEEE Communications Society and you received awards for your technological achievements in wireless communication. What role has IEEE played in your career now that you're a Senior Member and a Life Fellow of IEEE? When you sit back and look at your career what role has IEEE played?
de Marca:
It has been an incredible journey. What can I say? I enjoyed every bit of it. I was able to make a lot of contributions. I became respected worldwide. I was recognized, as you say. So, actually, when I finished my term as president elect, the next president, 2015, I said, no, I won't do any more, anything else. Because, last year as president, should not do anything. - -, past president. But then, I couldn't resist. People started inviting me to their discussions here, discussions there, and chair a committee, so then I came back to do things. I really liked to do it, and I definitely felt like for me it was very important in my career. It also allowed me to be recognized in my country, in part, because of my success at IEEE.
How can you imagine this, when you're young, twenty years old, that something like that will happen in your life? You can't. Like, when I started, in 1970, helping my mentor, this was totally—I mean it was just admiring all those well-supported people doing papers and so on. Then, all of a sudden, you are next, head-to-head with them, and you see a lot. You are in meetings with some people, very, very intelligent people and the leaders of your field, and you are able to [discuss and] argue. It's a great challenge, and once you succeed in that, you really feel good.
Hellrigel:
Do you like to travel? What did you like about the presidency? I know you went to some IEEE Milestone dedication ceremonies.
de Marca:
Oh, that was great. I had to do some, in my opinion, very important milestones. One of them I will address, because we are seeing the effects. I was in Japan for a milestone for an experiment related to physics. They had to develop some very, very complex equipment to help a physics professor do research in high-energy physics. That was very nice. First of all, the person who decided to be able to develop this equipment was the owner of the company, and he was I believe the best. He was there. It was a very nice ceremony. At this ceremony, there was a guy standing behind the president of the company. There was myself, my wife behind me, the president of the company, and another tall Japanese behind him. I met this tall Japanese. This picture of all four of us showed up in the newspaper in the city.
Well, a few months go by, and then, Ingle, this guy behind the tall Japanese, got the Nobel prize in physics. And then to say, look this guy got the Nobel prize. He has a picture of him in the paper. It was published in the - -.
Then, I was involved in activities in the Brazil Academy of Science. They were looking for a brave keynote speaker for the annual meeting, and the Nobel prize in physics, and the people and the impact. So, okay, I got back to my office in New York, and I called him. It so happens, and sure enough, I called him, and he remembers me, and he talks. He accepted to come to Brazil to give the keynote speech. Then it also happens that this guy was a student of the professor who made the experiment that was recognized as [an IEEE] milestone. His professor got another prize. The choice of the professor and the students, on different occasions, both getting - - prize and working on - -. It recognized the research, and it recognized the equipment that allowed them to do the work. That was an interesting milestone.
Other milestones [included]recognizing Heinrich Hertz, the frequency Hertz.
Hellrigel:
Oh, Hertz, yes.
de Marca:
We were recognizing the room, I mean the achievements, but also the place where he worked. It was amazing because all the story behind what he did in that room and how he made all his discoveries, and he proved - - that have been developed for the magnetics. It's amazing.
Hellrigel:
Did you have any other memorable moments or events? What did you like about being president? I imagine you had many meetings and committees. I don't know if they were any fun.
de Marca:
Oh, yes.
Hellrigel:
I mean they're important, but they might not always be enjoyable.
de Marca:
Have fun? There is - - difficult, but being with colleagues was always good. So, we had the meetings, and we had some meetings in different places. Actually, I was lucky that one of my meetings was in Amsterdam.
That meeting had 1500 people, and I had to make a speech in this huge room, during the banquet. There were like 1500 people and all these big displays showing us.
Another interesting experience was that –well, the first, was very nice, it is the owner of same one that I had to do twice, first as president elect, president. That was my first opportunity working with teleprompters, and that was very tiring spending like two hours or more staring and reading those awards. The first one in the teleprompter on the left, and that signal was not showing the whole face, but luckily, I couldn't see that. I cannot read this last part of the word. That was an interesting and a very nice ceremony. It's so honorable to be there and see the ceremony and the recognition of such an ambitious group of people. I always felt fantastic to be able to do that. It was an amazing experience. So, some of the things that you do as the elected president are amazing.
Hellrigel:
Did your wife do any of the traveling with you?
de Marca:
Oh, she did a lot. She's actually with me now. She did a lot. Yes, she did. And, and she was very—She has ancestry of engineer too. So, a professor engineer, so I was able to talk to people and—and, of course, she was also interesting, and absorb the culture, understand the culture of, for example, the Arab culture, Middle Eastern, and in China, she walked around some by herself to - - these homes of people, how they live, and that was a--
Hellrigel:
Is she a member of IEEE?
de Marca:
Yes, she is. She actually is now a chair of the Brazil Council. There's a council in the section of the country. She's a chair with Brazil Council.
Actually, another one, she had an interesting experience. I was in Jordan. I was visiting a university and the professors were making a presentation for me. I was sitting in the first row. Some professors and people, then all of a sudden saw I kind of was moving to the side. Then, the professor presenting, Hail, Royal Highness, Princess - -. The princess walked in the room and sat next to me, and to welcome in to - - presented something. So, they didn't tell me. So, they knew they should - -.
Hellrigel:
Royalty.
de Marca:
Yes, royalty. So, the guy stopped the presentation in the middle, and saluted, your royal highness. That was a very interesting and very honorable situation. I feel sorry for those presidents I see in this year; they're going to travel much one of the good things that we could do.
Hellrigel:
Yes, and Toshi [Toshio Fukuda] is the first IEEE president from Region 10, so it's a little anticlimactic for him to be president during the pandemic when most activities have become virtual events.
de Marca:
I felt sorry for them. - - early March. I say the days before they put them - -, later on. So, when they left here - -, there's several people who saw all the mess and - -. That was, I think, the CDC news, and, and he actually left in less, way less hours that you could leave the room. They locked the country. I left at like midnight, and he left in the morning, and that was it.
Hellrigel:
That would be interesting to find out if any IEEE members got stranded.
de Marca:
I don't know. There's, one volunteer at that time that I know of an old timer.
Hellrigel:
In mid-March 2020, we just finished the IEEE History Committee meeting at a Newark Airport hotel. One gentleman did not come because Italy was already shut down. Others committee members were hurrying to get back to India and elsewhere, even to Canada, before the border closed.
de Marca:
It was March 15, when I came to the meeting in the early morning and that was it. I mean I was supposed to be in the meeting. I feel sorry for Toshi [2020 IEEE President Toshio Fukuda] and Patsy.
Hellrigel:
You were in Peru at that point for a meeting?
de Marca:
Yes. And Peru happened to be the country with the highest rate of deaths per capita in the pandemic.
Hellrigel:
Oh, my. Wow. Which meeting was this?
de Marca:
It was the Region 9 meeting for 2021, held on 11 to 15 of March 2020.
Hellrigel:
Are you having any face-to-face meetings now?
de Marca:
Not yet.
Hellrigel:
No, not us.
de Marca:
First, there were hybrids when COVID started to happen. We had one in Madrid, and the same would be hybrid, too. But, the meetings, no.
Hellrigel:
Even the November meeting, I think the Board of Directors is supposed to meet in Orlando, Florida, but that meeting may be virtual. I don't know for sure.
de Marca:
No, they're not going. I don't think they're going to go.
Hellrigel:
Yes, as far as I know, they're not going to go.
de Marca:
If they change their mind, yes.
Hellrigel:
I've been with IEEE since 2016. When I heard that the Board was meeting at Disney World, I thought that was pretty funny. Of all the places to meet, why Disney, an expensive resort?
de Marca:
Yes, that was one of my last meetings. I think 2019, maybe, or Disneyland. That was fun, yes.
Hellrigel:
Some IEEE members said that when their children were out of school, they sometimes brought them along to conferences. Family members would vacation and attend area attractions.
One of my research interests is world’s fairs and new technology displayed at world’s fairs and technical exhibitions. AIEE used to have technical meetings in conjunction with world's fairs and technical congresses and exhibitions. In some ways, amusement parts and Disney are sort of the entertainment spin-off of these events.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
In the late 1890s to maybe 1920, electrical engineers and mechanical engineers had some of the most interesting jobs making those amusement parks.
de Marca:
Yes, they're amazing. A lot of engineering there.
Hellrigel:
The 1900 World's Fair had a moving sidewalk, which was made of wood. Sometimes the people lost their balance and were tossed off, so they had to put sticks in the middle of the wooden sidewalk so people could hold on. So, that was kind of fun.
I don't know if there's anything we didn't cover.
de Marca:
No, I think it's fine. We covered a lot. I think you have a lot of material from my point of view. I can send you something about more recent achievements and also 2012. Then you can derive more.
Hellrigel:
Right, and if you could—if we could add a few of those pictures, that would be fun.
de Marca:
Okay, I'll look for the pictures. Okay. Alright.
Hellrigel:
I'll need help with some of the names and when you review the transcript you are permitted to make minor corrections.
de Marca:
No. It was—I thought, at least, I was careful not to give - -.
Hellrigel:
One last topic. When you were IEEE President did you work with the IEEE Foundation?
de Marca:
Not much.
Hellrigel:
The IEEE Foundation is coming up on its fiftieth anniversary in 2023. That's another project I'm working on.
de Marca:
Yes, I'd be happy to say something if you want. During my term in office, we had interaction we have with all the awards and so on, but not more than that.
Hellrigel:
Right. If you think of a subject we did not cover, you maybe add something a little later as a First-Hand History. For example, I know some of the earlier presidents were also president of the IEEE Foundation, but most did not discuss that in their oral history.
de Marca:
Sure.
Hellrigel:
The last question I have deals with IEEE Milestones. Robert Colburn is the IEEE History Center staff member in charge of the IEEE Milestones program. He suggested that I ask if you think history is important to IEEE?
de Marca:
Definitely.
Hellrigel:
Why?
de Marca:
Any organization. I think that - - I'm not sure - - history - - maybe - -. So many achievements that came from people from IEEE, and for the internet has a most famous paper on the TCPIP made by Bob - - and - -,
But I don't think we exploit this as well as we should. The contribution of IEEE to the world over these decades has been huge, so it's very important for these volunteers that we have. It's just they're not quite in the same pattern as the old volunteers, to see how much we have built based on the old model that was so successful and brought - -. The list of excellent people that have participated at IEEE over the years is amazing. All this should be known, so I think it's important to have history. Actually, history for me, if you're going to move forward, you should know what you have accomplished in the past, and - -. But, for a - -, history is very important.
I'm sure there are others, even like Bell Labs, - - important the issue. They have all these things that happened there. They invented transistors, so that. And, some others, like Apple, and so on. So, I think they—I'm sure they captured their history. I'm sure they use it to motivate their employees. I think we can motivate our volunteers and members, and potential members, all over the world.
Hellrigel:
What we are trying to do with the oral history, with the IEEE Life Fellow oral history project, is develop a peer-to-peer interviewing program. IEEE Life Fellows will interview other Life Fellows. I am trying to get the word out and make the pitch to the young professionals at the next Rising Stars Conference. Last year I made a presentation at the Rising Star conference in hopes of getting some of the younger IEEE members involved. Then, the next thing would be to offer an oral history training session.
de Marca:
In Brazil, I don't think many of the industry leaders know about IEEE. Some don't know at all. But having a good history documented will facilitate a lot of sort of speech to get them to get involved. The founding members are getting old.
Hellrigel:
You know, many IEEE members in industry have told me that industry in the U.S., the companies, no longer pay their fees. They used to pay membership fees and let people go to conferences. But it's a different time now.
de Marca:
Indeed.
Hellrigel:
And, especially, I mean Region 9 is a distinct region and I don't know how many meetings are held there. The cost of travel is very expensive, but if you get on committees, IEEE will cover it, providing you don't go first class on short trips. All the IEEE rules and policies pertaining to travel.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
I'm working on a project. It's called “See the USA the AIEE Way.” At the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, the AIEE wanted to demonstrate that it was as act as big and important as the IEE, the electrical engineering society in the United Kingdom. The AIEE put together a two-week tour of important power engineering sites and they invited visitors from the IEE and other European technical societies attending the world’s fair and the International Electrical Congress on this grand tour. They toured about twelve different locales via train, trolley, steamship, and other means of transportation. A similar tour was organized by the IEE for those attending the 1900 Paris world’s fair and International Electrical Congress. I pieced together the 1904 tour by reading AIEE proceedings [Proceedings of the American Institute of Electrical Engineers and special AIEE tour books as well as technical journals. And they dragged the people around on the trains, uh, to about a dozen different locales, and that I pieced together through the old AIEE proceedings [Proceedings of the American Institute of Electrical Engineers].
Thank you for your time.
de Marca:
You're welcome. Have a nice evening.
Hellrigel:
Regarding your wife, we will contact her for an oral history.
de Marca:
Okay. Alright. Record her oral history, too.
Hellrigel:
Yes, now I know where you are, Rio de Janeiro.
de Marca:
Yes.
Hellrigel:
Thank you, and have a good night, sir.
de Marca:
You're welcome. Bye-bye, you, too.
