Oral-History:Sadao Kawamura
About Sadao Kawamura
Sadao Kawamura was born in Osaka Prefecture, Japan. Growing up in the city of Osaka, Kawamura developed an interest in both robotics and animals. He attended the University of Osaka in the Department of Biophysics, where he was able to pursue his interest in both the living and the artificial. After graduating with a Bachelor’s of Science degree in Biophysical Engineering in 1981, Kawamura wished to build robots and other mechanical systems. He stayed at the University of Osaka for his Master’s work, but he changed his major to Mechanical Engineering. Much of his research at this time was focused on the movement of robotics and attempting to mimic the natural motion of humans and animals. Kawamura would receive a Master’s of Science in Mechanical Engineering in 1983 and a PhD in Mechanical Engineering in 1986.
After briefly working at the University of Osaka as an assistant professor after graduation, he was hired as an associate professor at Ritsumeikan University’s Department of Mechanical Engineering in 1987, where he continued his work on robotics. At this time, he also began his own laboratory, creating it from next to nothing with his own computers and equipment. Kawamura proposed and helped establish Ritsumeikan University’s Department of Robotics, the first department of robotics in the world. He has been a professor at this department since 1996 and a director of Ritsumeikan University’s Robotics Research Center since 2011. He served as president of the Robotics Society of Japan from 2011 to 2013.
In this interview, Kawamura discusses his education, his career, the process of starting Ritsumeikan University’s Department of Robotics, the Robotics Society of Japan, and many of the robotics research and development projects he has worked on along the way.
About the Interview
SADAO KAWAMURA: An Interview Conducted by Selma Šabanović with Matthew Francisco, IEEE History Center, 29 August 2011
Interview #814 for Indiana University and the IEEE History Center, The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc.
Copyright Statement
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It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:
Sadao Kawamura, an oral history conducted in 2011 by Selma Šabanović with Matthew Francisco, Indiana University, Bloomington Indiana, for Indiana University and the IEEE.
Interview
Interviewee: Sadao Kawamura
Interviewers: Selma Šabanović with Matthew Francisco
Date: 29 August 2011
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Early life and Education, PhD Work and Bipedal Robots
Q:
And if you need to stop at any time.
Kawamura:
Okay.
Q:
Or you want us to not use something that you said, just let us know.
Kawamura:
All right. Good.
Q:
Thank you.
Kawamura:
Because still jet lagged, so. Okay.
Q:
So could you tell us your name and when and where you were born.
Kawamura:
Okay, my name is Sadao Kawamura. I was born in Osaka Prefecture. I grew up in Osaka and entered the Osaka University. Do you know Osaka? Okay. And I entered the Department of the Biophysics and before entering the university, I was very interested in the robots and also I was interested in the living things there, animals or fish or insects or something like that. And I did <inaudible> most of them. So then I decided to enter the this department, because this department is a very interesting and students must learn many subjects, the molecular biology and neurophysics and human interface and the information theory and control theory and electrical engineering, were so many. So and just I go to there, I could learn both artificial things and living things, both of them. That’s my very interesting point. So but after four years when I graduated from this department, I go to the – I wanted to make artificial things like robots, mechanical system or much more than studying, much more than on arriving there, biological system. So then I decided to change my major and I entered the graduate school over there, mechanical engineering, also university and I started to study over there, robots there. Part of the – yeah, undergraduate students by physical engineering, at that time, I also – yeah, I was studying kind of the fish robots there. We made that very interesting fish robots there and I measured the efficiency of the motion performance with the graduate students there.
And at that time, the students are very interesting there. Some of my students who become the professors, the micro electro mechanical engineering field and other person become a researcher over there, brain science or other person now he’s the president of the kind of the Panasonic Paraplegic company. So many very different areas. So then I studied the robot research there, under the supervision of the Professor Imoto. At that time, he started just to study the robot research there and Professor Miazaki he’s a – in those days, he’s an assistant professor and studied the bipedal locomotion robots there. And not to perfect [ph?] the human, just the legs, two legs. And I joined this project as my start over there, research of the robotics and in those days, motor power is very weak and it was very difficult to realize the bipedal locomotion robot, and also the sampling time they just do, maybe around the 30 second, 30 millisecond. So it was very difficult to tune the feedback gain to make the motion of the robots then. So <inaudible> we succeeded to make the bipedal locomotion. Yeah, that’s good memory.
Q:
What year was that around?
Kawamura:
You mean the –?
Q:
The biped.
Kawamura:
Yeah, first I made the robot itself and the second I made the computer program and but it was very difficult to tune the feedback. So then I tried to make the feed- forward input, the control but there was no good ideas to make the feed forward input. So then I try and try every day, every night, so just changing the desired trajectory. So that means the – kind of we can make the feed-forward input trial and error, so it was not so effective. So then I thought of we need a very automatic system then, kind of learning. So then I tried to make the kind of motion learning method there for the bipedal motion robots. So in my PhD thesis was the iterative learning control for the robot motion. And at first I applied this technique to the bipedal locomotion robot and we succeeded making the very suitable locomotion. And after that, we applied this technique to the manipulators there, motion, the – so then we didn’t need to tune the feedback gain because the robot they stay around the desired motion. So I think that’s a very honest, yeah, control system there. And also we could prove how our technique works well from a mathematical viewpoint. So the results, yeah, Professor Imoto [ph?], the mathematical proof is very, very helpful, yeah. And yeah, anyway, we could get good result, I believe. Yeah.
Q:
You mentioned that you started with an interest in both animals and robots.
Kawamura:
Yes, yes.
Q:
And so with bipeds there’s a connection to humans and robots.
Kawamura:
Yes.
Q:
So was there any – did you study walking in humans inorder to do some of the work?
Kawamura:
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So always, we look to the both of them and how human can walk very well, and we studied from the human locomotion. But the implementation using the hardware that is very different. So how we pick up the important point from the human motion and we implement the real robots there. That’s a very important point there.
Q:
And what are some of the big challenges that you were facing when you were trying to do that, going from human like walking to getting the hardware to actually?
Kawamura:
So as you know, the human body has many kind of number of the muscles and in the robot case, the number of joints is limited. So then how we pick up the important motion, as kind of maybe the center of gravity changing or other view points there. I think that’s very important to find out.
Q:
And what were some of the kinds of studies or experiments that you were doing then with the robots?
Kawamura:
You mean the –?
Q:
People and robots.
Kawamura:
When I studied bipedal locomotion? Yeah, that time the – of course Professor Miyazaki, that’s Assistant Professor, his major is bipedal locomotion in those days, and yeah, Dr. Takayaki [ph?], he was the doctor of students there, in the same laboratory. Now he’s the Mitsubishi rectory [ph?] Corporation, and he’s – certainly very interested to make the natural motion of the robots there. I also studied thusly and also when I was the graduate student, I moved to some laboratories, there are different laboratories. And because I graduated from the biophysical engineering, I knew many person, the previous department. So then I joined the seminars and to study neuro networks or other neurophysiology and Dr. Kawato, he’s in ATL now. In those days he was a PhD student and I joined several seminars to study there, neurophysics there, and that’s very interesting for me. And we exchanged some ideas in discussions. So such the duration of different field, that’s very, very important for me, I think.
Q:
Did Dr. Kawato do anything with the bipeds at the time or no?
Kawamura:
Not biped, but very general motion learning and also I studied many things from him about the neurophysiology and the mathematical treatment also. That’s very, very important.
Q:
And how did you combine the kinds of different things that you learned from these different fields into your work?
Kawamura:
I have to say, till now, I cannot combine very well. So now, I’m struggling, because the living thing is very, very difficult to analyze perfectly. So still now I’m studying.
I’m considering the, yeah, how we use the functions of the living things to design artificial things. In some robots, now so many numbers of industrial robots are walking and they’re all over the world. And but with living things, there is a very interesting contrast because in the robots’ case there is small number of sensors just encoder as they are some other, very few sensors. But the CPU, that’s a large computation power, and very limited actuator. So very small number of options. But living things are very different. There are very large number of the sensors, but small computation power and a large number of actuators. So they can behave very smoothly and very effectively and very robust and very soft and from energy efficiency view point, living things very nice. So then, I think robots should learn from living things.
There are so many new ideas there to make the robots there, in near future. But at the same time, I believe just a copy is not good. So important point is that to make clear the functions of the animals or insect or living things. That’s very important to realize the artificial things. I thought about these things at that time also.
Q:
And it seems living things are much more embodied and connected to the world.
Kawamura:
Right, right, right.
Q:
Without so much thinking.
Kawamura:
Yeah, right.
Q:
Being in the world.
Kawamura:
Right.
Q:
And when you were doing, you mentioned doing the fish and then also the biped. What kinds of questions were you interested in? Were there design questions? Were there – and you mentioned kind of looking at the neurophysiology of things. Were there also scientific questions or application issues that were involved in this project?
Kawamura:
So probably, that’s an interesting question. Just a moment. One clear thing, the – my hobby is martial arts, do Aikido. So then I started to do this Aikido practice when I was a high school student. So then I practiced very hard when I was in high school and also a university student. So to round one motion, so we have to do the same similar motion more than 1,000, 10,000 times, so we human beings can learn one desired motion. So then when I was a graduate student, I thought a human can learn the desired motion through iterative motion. So then probably the robot can also. That’s a basic idea to make the locomotion of robots. So in this sense maybe the kind of neurophysiological areas that I was very interested in there, but at the same time, the fish robot case there, maybe I like the sound softer than some shape or so maybe both of them, maybe I was very interested in, I should say.
Q:
And did people think of applying these things for any specific thing?
Kawamura:
Yeah, I’ve heard the outward ears, of course this idea is the – my PhD thesis about the <inaudible> of the convergence of the motion to the desired motion. So then the not only, but those other automotive and the Professor Miyazaki, they contributed this work. And in this laboratory there are several researchers from the company and for example, the researcher from the electric Company, he used this technique to some video cameras. In those days, the camera system is different, kind of that tape then. So then they designed a velocity <inaudible>, they’re very important to keep the desired trajectory of the velocity. He used our technique to yeah, make that good movie cameras there. Maybe other things, the chemical plant and that’s very different. Chemical plant or some mechanical system for some access or some other – very different areas this technique is.
Q:
So what kind of things did you do after your PhD?
Kawamura:
Okay.
Q:
Or actually sorry, I know I had something else to ask of him.
Kawamura:
Okay.
Q:
But what was the state of bipedal robotics then? Were there other groups working on bipeds or walking robots?
Kawamura:
Yes. Yes, in those days there were several groups which were focusing on the bipedal locomotion and University of Tokyo, the Mira Sensei [ph?] and the Shimoyama Sensei, they are making the very dynamic bipedal locomotion and also the Waseda University and the Kato Sensei and the Takanishi Sensei, also they making the very good – enough large, the human sides done by the locomotion robot and also other kyushu technology, yeah, the Master Sensei or other people. So there was the smaller research group there. So then we exchanged the information, yeah. But approach is a little bit different there. So some group focusing on the control theory, the other groups focusing mechanical design or the other system, interesting other things. So that made it a little bit different.
Q:
Why was there do you think such an interest in walking robots?
Kawamura:
From a theoretical viewpoint, they’re unstable. So then, it’s very interesting the target from a control theory. So then, that’s the main reason why people interested in the bipedal locomotion, I think. Okay?
Q:
Yeah, that’s totally fine. So going back to your trajectory.
Kawamura:
Okay, okay, trajectory.
Entering Ritsumeikan University
Q:
After your PhD what happened?
Kawamura:
After, yeah, after getting my PhD and I was the assistant professor in Osaka University in same laboratory and just one year later I moved to the Ritsumeikan University.
Now, I’m working there, and I became associate professor in the department of mechanical engineering. And so I started my laboratory there 1987. At first there was (unintelligible) completely nothing. So then I make the – I bought the computers and also made the expert (unintelligible) very, very simple mechanical system was, and it – yeah, so then I continued such multi-jointed mechanism, multi-bodied dynamics or something like that. And my interest is a little bit to the theoretical approach as there was the implementation of the hardware. So then I started – oh sorry. I did it wrong there. I started another project there, when I was there, the end of the PhD and also the assistant professor in Osaka University I studied another approach there. That is the time scale transformation technique there. We called the – that is the – we changed the time scale, we enlonged or shortened it to analyze the nonlinear dynamics and also to make the suitable feedforward control input there. So this is very unique there because time is the just the scalar bodies[ph], you know. So even though the (unintelligible) body was before like the robot and also nonlinear dynamics case, but time is just a scalar. So then the very simple factor can characterize the very complicated (unintelligible) variables for a non-linear dynamical system. So then I used this one.
So because the – why we consider this technique there, using the iterative running control and we can get to the desired feedforward input through the many operation. So then just around the desired motion like human beings. So then they don’t do the humans case there. I thought the human can image – probably human can image the human of thing that desired motion or that person can also image the different speed of motion. So then they go for a batting day. So we learned that very slow motion first, and after that then already we can run a very fast motion. But once we learn the – such agilent motion, so we can image the different speed motion of that. So then I wanted to implement like this ability, yeah, of the robot, motion control. So then, it’s a little bit complicated contents, but linear time transformation case, I could succeed prove that when I was PhD student, also the assistant professor. And then after I moved to the Ritsumeikan University I try again the non-linear time scale transformation case. So then one year later I could get the hint and after that I could succeed there. They put forward how we use this technique there.
So then what we could get is the four different velocity or motion patterns. If the robot, they’re four different time scale different patterns. For example, the very slow motion like this and intermediate speed and high speed and the important point is the first part is the slow starter or high speed or high speed or slow speed like this. Anyway, the nonlinear speed, four patterns there. So after getting the four patterns there, the robot can generate the arbitrary motion, so we could prove that one. So that technique is very simple but very useful for the very complicated system. So then I applied the data maybe 10 years – almost 10 years later I applied this technique to underwater robot, motion controlled. Anyway, I started like that there, research there when I was there as assistant professor in the Ritsumeikan University. That’s one project.
Q:
And did you have an idea that you can apply it to these different things at the time or did that come later?
Kawamura:
The linear case then, at the same time, I could get the ideas there, whereas the PhD students case there, after getting the iterative running control result. And the nonlinear case study, once I gave up it’s very difficult, so I gave up but one new PhD student there they entered my laboratory and so then I started to consider this subject again, and as his PhD thesis. So anyhow I could get to the good results there.
Q:
What do you think changed between the first time and then when it actually worked?
Kawamura:
So at first, when I was the PhD student’s case study I focused on some areas there. I didn’t see the different point there. So anyhow, once I gave up and the look there, this subject, the very wide view, so then I could get the new ideas there. That’s very important.
Q:
So when you weren’t focusing so much on the biped or that particular type of motion.
Kawamura:
Yes, yes, yeah.
Establishing the Department of Robotics
Q:
So when you got to Meikan were there other people there who were interested in robotics?
Kawamura:
When I was the associate professor, just to – well professors whose specialty is robotics. The other professor is in the materials or the machinery or different areas, just did one, yes. And after I started there, our university decided to expand the college over there in general science. So then I proposed the new department of robotics so then I prepare the – yeah, and also the – we (unintelligible) started a research center in robotics there. So fortunately the most of them we could establish and in 1996, we all started the department of the robotics and we needed two years to prepare there for this department because this department is very new and maybe the first department of robotics in Japan and maybe we all over the world this is very unique because the not graduate school there, but the undergraduate case. Maybe that is (unintelligible) now very traditional department mechanical and electric and graduate school robotics are some very master course there. I think that’s natural. I really (unintelligible) the educational program.
For Japan, the case may be if the student wants to enter one area, one field, so it’s very rare the person to change to different areas. So enter the same graduate school of the same areas so but I think the very wide view is very important. Not only the research robot but also the engineer other ordinary areas also. So then as the counterpart of it. I would like to start the new department so then the department of robotics case study student must learn the mechanics and the electric engineering and also the information science and also some technical human measurements and motion measurements or some other – yeah, psychological things or something. So very wide. So now the almost – yeah, 15 years have passed after the start of this department.
Q:
And are there any other departments that you know of in Japan that have robotics from very early on?
Kawamura:
Yeah. So after we started this department there are several department that started in other university. Now maybe probably there are more than ten departments there in many different university.
Q:
But not very common around the world, right?
Kawamura:
Oh I think so. I think so.
Q:
In Japan there seems to be an interest in these interdisciplinary because they’re also mechatronics was kind of a more starting in Japan
Kawamura:
Yes, right.
Q:
Which is also interdisciplinary an also
Kawamura:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but at same time we need interdisciplinary education much more I think. So because as I said, I think maybe that Japanese culture is their focus on the one way, so it’s not so easy to mix the many areas. The European countries also the North American case maybe they’re very natural to change the people want to move there. They are space or some areas there. I think that maybe in Japanese is different there. So therefore we need such interdisciplinary educational program so I believe.
Q:
And what was the name of the faculty member who was doing robotics when you got to Meikan?
Kawamura:
Ritsumeikan University?
Q:
When you just got there you said there was one person.
Kawamura:
Okay. One person and so the other person?
Q:
Mm-hmm.
Kawamura:
Professor Miyata, yeah.
Q:
And then afterwards you hired more faculty or?
Kawamura:
Yes. So then we could do – we put in new positions as a professors and academic staff in this new department so then I asked some people there and to become the professors or assistant professors. So then the very good professors all came to this department and the – started by maybe 12 or 13 professors the year. So from the University of Tokyo or Wasera University and Kyoto University or Kyoto University and yeah, yeah, yeah. So many different universities, yeah.
Q:
Who were some of the first people who came?
Kawamura:
Professor Hanafsa [ph?], he was the president of the RSJ and also Professor Watanabe he came from the Kyoto University and Mieta, Professor Mieta from Osaka University and then Professor Nale [ph?]. Professor Nale is now the professor in same department. He came from Kyoto University also and Hirai, Professor Hirai. He came from the Osaka but he graduated from Kyoto University and he was the student over there Hari Asada [ph?] MIT and Professor Tejima. He came from the Tokyo University and Professor Ishi [ph?] from Waseda. Ishi from the Waseda University and who – how many I said?
Q:
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. You don’t have to remember –
Kawamura:
Okay, okay. Okay, okay.
Q:
Not a test.
Kawamura:
Okay.
Q:
So were there particular topics that people were interested in at the time or that the department kind of focused on more than others?
Kawamura:
Okay. Oh, sorry. Professor Arimoto also joined us <laughs>. He was at University of Tokyo. He was a professor in Osaka University and also went to the Tokyo University and moved to Ritsumeikan University. I call him. <laughs>
So then we have the mainly the three areas in this department. One is the robot system that we call a system, but maybe the hardware-oriented and the second area is the intelligence. That’s the machine intelligence there. So and third area is some human something, maybe we considered the near future at that time, human interaction is very important. So then the measurement of the human behavior including the psychological things that – so that area is very important in robotics. So then we said that the some main areas there are some main areas that we stated that human measurement. So we did not see the human science there. It’s very tough. Very few professors completed all areas of human science. So then we said to the very limited human measurement there. Yeah, so because the application of the robots is very important there. Those three areas.
Q:
And how did you have a feeling that the human side was very important? Was it more from the government or funding or where did that idea come from?
Kawamura:
That’s an interesting question. At that time there was no big funding there, the areas of the human interaction so but we considered the Japan will become the elder society so then also the human interaction, so human measurement is very, very important as the one of the application of the robots. So that’s our original discussion, yeah.
Q:
And what year was this around?
Kawamura:
You mean actually what we did?
Q:
Yeah, when you were kind of discussing these things and putting the department together.
Kawamura:
Oh, so other curriculum, educational program, we stated the several subject, so measurement of the human motion or biomechanics or bionics or some other study for understanding the human itself, so not the medical, just like medical school sense, means kind of the measurement, yeah. That’s the correct word and also some of the professors have interest in the wearable robotics and also the human machine interface or medical application that’s there.
Q:
And was this in the ‘90s?
Kawamura:
In the 90…?
Q:
1990s or –
Kawamura:
Oh, 1996 we started this department, yeah.
Q:
And what were you working on at the time?
Kawamura:
First of all I prepared, our president ordered me to prepare (unintelligible) this so then at that time it was not so easy to start a new department there. So then I came to the ministry over there, the education so many times to prepare, to write many papers then to discuss and when I started this department – first of all we had to do the advertisement for the high school students what the department of robotics is. That’s also very difficult. Yeah, but anyway, yeah, we could continue the 15 years there.
Q:
Was there a lot of interest or it was strange to students?
Kawamura:
One thing is the high school students are imaged, the robot image that came from the cartoon, so science fiction so then when they enter the university I ask them what’s a robot? So then the answer - most of the answer was the very non scientific case. So in the (unintelligible) hour I got into staff about I explained now what’s going on actually. When they graduated there from our department they could deeply understand what’s the meaning of the robotics that are the system integration that they – what’s the importance of the robotics?
Q:
And the ministry of education, what kinds of things did you do with them? Was it getting approval for the department or were there other ways they were helping?
Kawamura:
We needed permission from the ministry of education otherwise we could not start. So in those days it was very, very difficult. Now from 2004, the easier, but in those days very difficult. So then we needed two years to start <laughs> this new department. First question from the ministry of education: “What’s a robot?” <laughs> A robot – is robot advance of technology? That’s the question. Second question is do you know that Japanese has three kinds of character: the hiragana, katakana, kanji. Kanji means a Chinese character and the hiragana is a very – so children must learn start from the hiragana. The katakana is also very easy to write. So then the second question is robot we usually write the katakana, not the China character, so <laughs> katakana so they didn’t want to use katakana name that as a university department <laughs> so –
Q:
that was the big problem
Kawamura:
Yeah, that’s a big problem for us because we do not have the Chinese characters that means robot, so then we convince the ministry of education that robot, this name is nice. A good memory. <laughs>
Q:
What kind of research were you working on? Probably while you were having to do all of this administrative stuff maybe it was hard to do research too.
Kawamura:
Yeah, yeah.
Tendon Ribbon Robots
Q:
How did your interests develop while you were?
Kawamura:
Okay. As I said, I started my own laboratory so then I had to prepare everything and but at the same time I could decide the direction of my research there even though I was just to 30 years old and so then I started, also there are almost ten undergraduate students and over half of the students enter the graduate school so then I should prepare the some of the research so then I started the new project. One of the new project is that the using the tendon ribbon robots there to make the very high speed, high acceleration so then we could realize the very high speed motion robots there with very small motors because the mass is very small and so of course to make the high acceleration so we may set the very large actuators. But I didn’t want to do that there, so I took the reverse direction – that is to reduce the mass. So then the tendon ribbon was so the moving part (unintelligible) mass there. I reduced it so then just the small 60-watt motor could realize the more than 43G. G means gravitational acceleration and that is very interesting for us and we actually made the like this side of the all very wide motion because in those days very high acceleration robots there was some high acceleration robot, but the motion range is very small. So then we realize a very wide range there and also the one Japanese company asked us to develop the large-scale robot and for the painting of the cruiser or a big ship. So then even though they use a very big crane or other big manipulators because a 10 meter or 20 meters in this case. So then that’s very dangerous also, the maintenance is very difficult. So then they asked us to develop a very lightweight and safety robot that used the tendon ribbon and so that we build up the large robot case or so. It’s one of the new project.
Q:
Which company was it?
Kawamura:
Yamaha. Yamaha.
Q:
And how did they contact you? Did you have contact before or –?
Kawamura:
Yeah. Okay. <laughs> I told you the department robotics there before that we started the robotics, flexible automation research center in 1995. So then we have several professors to prepare the new department so then before start time, some of the professor move to the Ritsumeikan University. So in 1995 or 4 there were some of the professors working in the Ritsumeikan University. So then we discussed and we needed the research centers there which specialized in the robotics field. So then we moved to the many companies and we explained our ideas and our ideas is very clear and our research interest we do in our laboratory and we want to make the new space and for the company’s research, so separated. So then we promised the research from the company we would seriously perform the industrial needs there. So then we explained that this idea to many Japanese companies. So then several Japanese companies agreed with us and they donated there not small money and we could establish the robotics flexible automation centers, but every company was national [ph?] national universities which was supported by the ministry of education. In that case maybe the center’s very big there, but Ritsumeikan was a private university so it is not so easy to get the research fund from the Japanese government so then we decided to propose our ideas to the Japanese company and so then the space is not large if I compare with the national university the big research centers, but almost 5000 square meters that we could obtain as the centers. So then this center is really flexible and if some researcher can get their contract from the Japanese company, that person can keep the space as the person like there. So after the contract they return to what is their laboratories and next person came here. So then this is the effective way to enhance the interaction of the industry and academia. Yeah. So then we continue this center. Now I’m the director of the centers there so it’s very useful centers.
Q:
What were some of the first companies that gave the donation?
Kawamura:
Daifuku. One of them Daifuku and Ishida. Ishida is kind of the measurement of the weight or some other measurement or device that they produced and Daifuku, Ishida, Okura. Okura. Yeah and other many companies, the Japanese companies that donated in 1994.
Funding the Department of Robotics, Research at Ritsumeikan University
Q:
And were the labs the university labs not the center labs, were they funded by the university or the government? What other types of funding were you able to get?
Kawamura:
You mean the centers?
Q:
Not the centers. So the center was mostly funded by companies.
Kawamura:
Okay, okay.
Q:
You were mentioning it was hard to get -
Kawamura:
Okay, okay, okay –
Q:
Government funding.
Kawamura:
Okay. So of course we could get the research money from the ministry of education and kind of the NSF, similar to the NSF and also the other research money from outside the university. In that case we performed that research in our laboratory and if we want to start out at the center, in the centers we need a contract. That’s very important. And at the same time our university started the kind of the liaison office so before that time the Japanese university didn’t have such a special group there and they – we started there firstly the liaison office so then they support us to find out the new good partner and also when we make the contract they support us then. That’s very, very important. So then Yamaha’s case that – Yamaha’s case was different there. They got– my research activities, my presentation in the conference there. So then they directly contacted me, but the different case may be this liaison staff found out a very suitable company and propose some contract there. That’s very helpful.
Q:
Did you have funding from METI as well or mostly ministry of education?
Kawamura:
Yeah. So – oh you mean MITI?
Q:
MITI, yeah.
Kawamura:
MITI, okay. Yeah, yeah. Sometime, yeah. We go to MITI, yeah, so and you do know NEDO?
Q:
Mm-hmm.
Kawamura:
Yeah. I myself and also several professors got the NEDO also the MITI, yeah.
Q:
Is there a difference between the type of work those three fund? So education is more science? or MITI is it more application or NEDO? Is there a difference?
Kawamura:
Yeah. Of course each the fund has the goal so then the Monbukagakusho that’s the similar to the NSF they focus on much more science and also the NEDO’s case the application oriented and depending on the fund there we should change the goal. So and also our university also supported the not so big money, but the small money to support the research there. So then we separate the depending on the fund, yeah.
Q:
And so what other kinds of projects did you do?
Kawamura:
Well, big project is the liaison staff funded project that was the very, very small company in Nara Prefecture the company’s made the socks and this very difficult to handle the deformable in the and very good machine make the automatically the socks but the not like shape – that connected each other. Do you know? And so then finally they cut each of them and they turn to this and sew this to make the complete socks. So but the high quality socks this case not just sew each the loop here to connect just the once. So there is no like a sewing machine this one so whatever, it is very difficult to make the automatically the – so then the human just to push out each group that this small needle here, so then that time that president of that company said to me just one loop push that one needle one in. So it is very hard the – so then this company couldn’t keep this product in Japan inside. So then the – he strongly wanted to make the new machine without using the human hand. So then we incorporated this project and one master student there joined, and very interestingly we didn’t understand the terminology of that company’s people. Very different. Completely we couldn’t understand so then I sent my master students to that company and stay there three months to learn the language <laughs> and also of course, not only language, but so the other technical what now actually doing now. So then we don’t do (unintelligible) my laboratory and we discuss the ideas that for the new design machine. And also I wanted to make the general program.
So, because just to make the machine which satisfied this task, that's also good for the - that's the company that requested us, but just to develop that machine, that is not good as a university researcher that I supported that. So then, I wanted to generalize this program, so then we made the program. I think to make a program is very important. I was much more of the answer that the program is very, very important. So then, we made this program, the handling of the deformable object there. So, they kind of knit materials so then deform it, so then we can (unintelligible) the some point. And so, in machines here, so then, so important we cannot touch, of course, so then the different point we must move to control this point. So then how many fingers or how many points we need to control that, how many target points then? And also the how we move this point here. So, then this problem is very interesting, then we could write several papers that, so even about the reverse case or something like that, that we cannot write this our technically. So, then we want students there, Ricky was the masters student and he entered the Ph.D. course and he got his Ph.D. about this research activities. And the company, enough they supported this project and also scholarship there. The students could get that scholarship from the company. Now, he is the associate professor in the Kaoru University. Now he has his laboratory now. That's the one project.
Q:
And were you doing more work that was connecting the human like in the bipeds or anything in terms of motion?
Kawamura:
Yes, hmm. I have several projects, so then, so which is suitable, hmm, human-like.
Q:
I’m just asking because the project with the companies, those seem a little different from the things that you were doing before. I was just curious if you also continued doing some of these looking at animal and human machine.
Kawamura:
Yes, yes, yes, okay. Yeah, yes, as you said, I continued this similar research there, basically iterative running control, after getting the desired motion torque there. How we use this and obtain the torque there. So, then I proposed a new idea based on the time scale transformation as I said, and after that, can we use this feed forward torque to make the new, different motion? So, then round like this one, the motion. But can we use this pattern to make the different motion like this. So, really I continued this, yeah, study there. So, very recently, almost the 20 years research started from there, the original work there. Yeah, I got new results and they're very limited. Just two degrees of freedom the case there we can apply the seven or basic motion is enough that to realize that the new desired torque. Let's continue the cities research there.
Q:
And were there any people that you were collaborating with at the time?
Kawamura:
Yes, there wer many people that collaborated then, yes. And the researcher graduated from my laboratory and now more than 20 persons there graduated from our laboratory and they, most of them are academic staff at the university and some of them are working in the company and some case there, we started a new projected with them. And one recent project is the underwater robots there. And we are making underwater robot with Duram and also the bubble floating to change the altitude of the robot. And floating block move here so then the relatively changed the body. So, then it's easy to compensate the change of the shape of the robots there. So, to start this project, I asked Professor Sakagami, he graduated from my laboratory in1999 or 2000. Now, he is the associate professor in Tokai University, Tokai was the private university and they have the college over there, the oceanology and other concerning the ocean world. So, now we have the joint research there, joint project. And we made several types of the underwater robots. And our university location is very close to the Biwa Lake, the biggest lake Biwa that is in the middle part of the Japan island. So then, I asked one Japanese company and they are engaged with the Komoshowa ship there so they have several type of ship, very large one and very small one. And thanks to that company we could freely use the small size cruiser for the experiment. So then, we carried the, our robots there to the harbor and to perform the experiments there in the Biwa Lake there. That's the one project there, new one.
Q:
Who's funding the robot?
Kawamura:
Just once started there, they fund from the one company, Dai Nippon Screen Corporation, that's they produce the screen for the semi-conductor. They are very interested in start of the robot business. So then, they asked to me to make some interesting robots there first. So then, they also are interested in some of the vision system also. So, we started using this fund from the Dai Nippon Screen Corporation.
Q:
Why underwater robots?
Kawamura:
Why they thought that?
Q:
Mm-hmm.
Kawamura:
At that time, they were very interested in the new kinds of the robots, so then, they focused on the underwater robots there, probably. And also they Dai Nippon Screen, they have the similar factories that are near the Biwa Lake, so then they are very curious there about the environmental condition of the Biwa Lake. So, they feel that maybe they favor to this and some responsibility of the environmental condition over there at Biwa Lake there. So, probably that's the one reason why they started the underwater robots there.
Q:
Is there a specific application that they want the robot to do when it's underwater?
Kawamura:
Not so specialized that one at that time there, yeah. But the very general robotic technology they are very interested.
Q:
Any other projects you want to tell us about?
Kawamura:
From 1996 to 2001, we have one project that is the kind of the human supported kind of robotics, that one from the GSPS, that's the project we develop there, some human machine interface. The interface means the mechanical contact. So then, we develop some of, the kind of robots that kind of are wearable case there and in this project, we focus on the pneumatic system. And the very lightweight and very high powered, but the control is not so easy because of the dynamics of the compressibility of air were part of the dynamics there. So then, I studied the dynamic analysis there, including the nonlinear dynamics of the compressibility and the dynamics there. Before that, maybe the pneumatic contrast case, dynamics suggested that the mechanical part there and not including the air compressibility, especially the nonlinear term of air compressibility, very complicated. So then, I propose the one control scheme for the nonlinear dynamics state of the pneumatic control system there. And that is one work there, yeah. So, yeah.
Q:
Is there any idea for what are you using the wearable robot for?
Kawamura:
In those days, I was interested in the lightweight high power actuator, so then I selected the pneumatic systems and I analyzed the dynamics and proposed a control and I wanted to apply to our hardware and software to the application, yeah, apply to some task there. So one direction is the kind of wearable system, because they're lightweight and high powered, so that's the reason why they are, yeah.
Q:
So it's kind of like an exoskeleton?
Kawamura:
Kind of, yeah, kind of, yeah but they're not perfectly exoskeleton case, they are just to support the wrist part of the hand and the robot like this also the, in (unintelligible), yeah, yeah, yeah.
Q:
Maybe the last question, so it's kind longer. If there's any other project you want to mention, that's fine, but I also wanted to ask about RSJ and how you got there and also a little bit about what the role of RJS is in Japanese robotics?
The Robotics Society of Japan
Kawamura:
Oh, very difficult question. Okay. Yeah, RSJ, do you know the RJS, the Robotics Society of Japan?
Q:
Mm-hmm.
Kawamura:
And now the more than 4,500 members including the students. And the 62 Japanese companies entered the RSJ. So, RSJ is very active, every annual conference there are more than 1,500 people attended. So then, the members are 4,500, so then the attendance is 1,500. And also we have the some of the international conference also. And because the one reason is that I think that there are several department of the mechatronics or information science and also the department of robotics, so then the large number of the academy staff and also the large number of the students studying there. That's why they are so active. And also the automobile company (unintelligible) and they introduce the so many numbers of the industrial robots there. So, they succeeded by introducing the many robots there. For example, spot welding for some harder task there. That's a one main story there in robots there. But now, Japan is also making the new market of the robots and so, for example, the service robot as the United States or European countries. And also, we have the civil project and a national project to make the new robots there. The service robots there. And as you know, Japan, the dramatic percentage of more than 65 years old people are increasing, so maybe how we make the good society and the service robot to work there effectively to support such elderly in the society. So then, the one project the Japanese company making this transformable bed, a bed can become the wheelchair, autonomous wheelchair and deformable. And so, the wearable robot there and the Cyberdine making the smart wearable robot and also Fuji Heavy Industries developed, they almost have developed the commercial use robot there, they're creating a robot there in the very large building there. Even though the people walking around the robot, the robot can walk well.
Yeah, there are several actual robots there in Japan. So then, the RSJ supported the activities there and also we are considering how we make a network there between the university people and the company's people to make the new robots there. The new fields as well as service robots there. That's an outline of RSJ.
Q:
And what are some of the ways in which RSJ does this? Is it meetings or I know there's a journal, does it have any funding of its own to give?
Kawamura:
We have two journals, one is Japanese, the other is the international journal. And also, we have the many kinds of the center and it has a tutorial on it and also we have provided the information there, so there is a variety of activities there.
Q:
And I know the Japanese government makes these proclamations or directions in terms of where robotics research goes, does RSJ have any hand in that at all?
Kawamura:
RSJ itself does not handle such, however, indirectly RSJ incorporate there, yeah. So (unintelligible) research there.
Q:
Kind of in terms of people and expertise?
Kawamura:
Yes, yes, and also in every annual conference we have the special session for the each speaker project for the national project case. So, then the members can understand what they are going on in the big project there. So, in a sense, we support their activities.
Q:
And RSJ has advanced robotics internationally.
Kawamura:
Yes.
Q:
What kind of impact do you think RSJ has on robotics internationally outside of Japan?
Kawamura:
Yeah, not only the many people submit to the papers, so then that's very good as a presenter, RSJ. So, that's very nice I think. So, then I hope in future the Advanced Robotics, the international journal of RSJ will become much more important journal all over the world. So, and I would like, yeah, make effort there for this.
Q:
And what do you think are some of the challenges for robotics in Japan?
Kawamura:
Yesterday, in the seminar or symposium, I'm not sure, I explained, we run into the original point there that is we should learn from the living things, as I said, so because now interesting, the robots, as I said, the numbers of sensors are very limited. If we compare with the living things there are many numbers of sensors. The important point is how we integrate it such variety of the sensors and how we integrate the many numbers of the actuators there. That's very important there, so once again, I think we can learn from living things there to get the new ideas. So also the second one is the system integration is very important there, I think. So, as a science, system integration is very important as well as the technology. So, I believe that the robotics is a very original, independent science. So, not only application of the other conventional scientific fields there, I believe. So then, to establish one field as a scientific field, I think to make real the system integration science as a science, that's very important there. So, I hope we robotic researchers make real all these results as a system integrated science in near future. And also the hardest thing also will make effort there to establish a new field of system integration.
Q:
And in Japan there's always a lot of discussion even in the talks yesterday about robots being in society with people. What are some the directions that that's going in these days?
Kawamura:
Yeah, yes, yes. The one people is the professor Kusagi, he presented yesterday and as he said, there's such a focus on the one subject and get the good result. And the other important point is that after getting the good result as such, how we use this results then?
So then, in this sense I think that we need a kind of a sense of the transdisciplinary, otherwise they just do result within their limited areas there. So then, what is also is, we need such a very wide view point there to actually use the good results, the research results there, that's very important now, I think. So, the RSJ, also we would like to make effort for this point there, yeah.
Advice to Young People
Q:
And we ask this usually a final question. So if you were giving advice to young people who want to be in robotics, what would that advice be?
Kawamura:
That's very different question. It's not so easy to make good out of it. Of course, depending upon the person, the advice should be different, but based upon my experience, I'm really lucky to keep considering one thing for a long time. So, then I was very interested in some of the relation between the living things and the robots there, so even though I worked there for many projects, many different goals there, but at the same I keep the one direction there, yeah. So, that was very good for me, I think. So, in my case, that was nice. This not advice.
Q:
So maybe keep a, have a good motivational idea.
Kawamura:
Yes, yes. So, then keep one idea for a long time. So, not to give up. Of course, once give up but start again, that's very important.
Q:
Just one thing that got stuck in my mind from the very beginning of the interview.
Kawamura:
Yeah.
Q:
You said even before you went to school, to university, you were interested in robots. How did you become interested in robots so early?
Kawamura:
First of all, I should say the answer was the cartoon. Of course, I watch the TV and the Astro Boy or the cartoons there. Actually, I have an inference there from the cartoon. But at the same time, as I said, I was very interested in the living things, yeah, I played near Lake Biwa also the river near my house and also I watch some of the animals. So, then in my case, maybe both of them. That's the reason for I entered this department.
Q:
Mm-hmm, great. Is there anything you'd wanted to add? That's about it for our questions in general, but if there's something we missed and you want in there.
Kawamura:
That's all maybe.
Q:
Thank you.
Kawamura:
You are welcome.
