Milestones-Nomination talk:Krka – Šibenik Electric Power System

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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
Wordsmithing218:17, 7 March 2013
Comment(s) from History Committee Member(s)001:05, 5 March 2013
My comments020:23, 4 March 2013
context of the milestone817:48, 20 February 2013


I support this milestone, but suggest the following re-wording of the citation:

At this location on 28 August 1895, the Krka hydroelectric plant began generating power for the city of Šibenik. This early system of power generation, transmission and distribution was one of the first complete multiphase alternating current systems in the world. It provided electric street lighting before many other European cities, including London and Rome. It remained in operation until World War I.

The first change was prompted by a desire to remove the passive voice (was transmitted). The second change was prompted by trying to eliminate the vague "a large number of" and provide comparative context (how did Sibenik compare with other large European cities). I took the information from the National Park web link provided. Please have someone with detailed knowledge of this site verify accuracy of my changes.

Allisonmarsh15:13, 5 March 2013

I full concur with the above comment, especially for the comparison with actual, well known cities. I support the proposal.

Fiorenza19:04, 5 March 2013

Thank you very much for your support and proposed wording.

Unfortunately I am not sure the proposed change is the best choice. The change in the first proposed sentence slightly changes the focus of the milestone and I do not believe the third sentence to be true.

There were several cities in Europe that had (some form of) electric street lighting prior to 1895. The city of Rijeka, for example, as early as 1884 for the premiere of Aida (needs verification). Rome, as another example, had a single-phase system (from the same manufacturer) before Šibenik was electrified.

The point of this milestone is to recognise the complete power system: its power generation, transmission (from the plant to the city), voltage transformation (six transformers in the city), distribution (within the city, after the voltage transformation), and consumption (street lamps).

Just a note: today’s modern power systems are multiphase alternating current systems (although with a different number of phases and different frequencies from the 1895 Krka-Šibenik system).

Thank you,

Marko Delimar, 7 March 2013

Comment(s) from History Committee Member(s)

As an early urban power system, using then current and emerging technologies, the Krka–Šibenik Electric Power System appears to be worthy of recognized as an IEEE Milestone.

Tbickart01:05, 5 March 2013

My comments

No comment.

Ggcooke20:23, 4 March 2013

context of the milestone

This seems to be a worthwhile nomination, but so far rather short of details

I could not find descriptions of this hydro system in English language books so far, so perhaps it would be useful to have a 'timeline' to relate this to other contemporary developments.

The key essentials are, I suppose, hydro-generation, multiphase and long distance high voltage transmission.

There are some existing IEEE milestones which cover similar developments at about the same time: 1. Redlands Power plant ( Mill Creek ) Hydro plant, 3 phase, 1893 2. Adams Hydro, high voltage distribution, multiphase, for use at Niagara Falls, 1895 3. Lota, Chile, Hydro plant, 3-phase motors (so I suppose 3-phase trannsmission), 1897 4. Decew Falls, Ontario, 2-phase, 22kV

Other relevant developments: 5. Connection Lauffen to Frankfurt (Germany) 25kV, 3-phase line, 175 km distance, 1891 6. Turin Italy, 2kV, 3-phase experiments, 1884 7. Hydroelectric plant at Portrush, Ireland, 1883

The book by Thomas P Hughes, Networks of power, electrification in Western Society, 1880-1930, John Hopkins UNiversity Press, 1983, has useful information.

Charles Scott (who worked with Nikola Tesla) was involved in a high voltage transmission system at Telluride (1891), and a scheme for converting 2-phase generators to 3-phase transmission at Niagara, in 1896, used the Scott transformer method (1894) to convert 2-phase to 3-phase.

Did Tesla have any hand in the Krka-Sibenik scheme?

Tonydavies15:27, 8 July 2012

Thank you for your kind comments.

A timeline is included in the following paper: Of course, as any, this timeline does not list all early power systems.

In addition to the essentials you listed, I would certainly like to add "complete power system" (production, transmission, distribution, consumption). Some early power systems, such as some you listed were either for an experiment or for an exhibition; this one was not, it was intended as a commercial system supping a city (Šibenik) with (multiphase) electric power.

I could not find any (conclusive) proof that Nikola Tesla was in any way involved with the Krka-Šibenik power system. This would have also been unlikely, as the masterminds behind the Krka-Šibenik system worked for Ganz ( Krka-Šibenik was the first implementation of their 2-phase alternator (the "A2"). Several famous engineers worked at Ganz, including Károly Zipernowsky, who together with Miksa Déri and Ottó Bláthy, is credited for the construction (and patent) of the first transformer and several other important AC technologies. A large number of the Zipernovsky, Déri and Bláthy patents were first implemented in Ganz early power systems, including Krka-Šibenik.

Marko Delimar 3 September 2012, 3 September 2012

I have added some additional documents on hydro power plant Jaruga. The first document "Development of Croatian Power System.pdf" is a scan of the historical book "Development of Croatian Electric Power System". We have translated some headlines of the book. This book describes the first hydro power plant in Dalmatia (Croatian coastal region) built by the company "Ante Supuk and Son". The hydro power plant was built in only 16 months. The allowed head was 25.8 meters, but only 10 m head was used. The vertical turbine Girard 320 HP was used. The generator was horizontal 320 kVA, 3000 V, 42 Hz. Electricity was transmissioned to the city of Sibenik using 4 wire (2phase) power line 11 km long. In the city of Sibenik the voltage was trasformed to 110 kV. The second document "Hydro Power Plants in Croatia.pdf" contains description of today's hydro power plant Jaruga 2, which was built near the location of the old hydro power plant Jaruga 1. The whole text is in English, and I marked in yellow the relevant parts describing the old hydro power plant Jaruga 1.

Best regards, Hrvoje Pandzic

Hpandzic19:45, 27 November 2012

Dear all,

I have uploaded three new photos taken at the location of the hydro power plant Jaruga 1. Please check them out.

Best regards, Hrvoje Pandzic

Hpandzic19:57, 27 November 2012

Dear all,

I have uploaded a book on history of Croatian and regional power system and its development. The book is in Croatian, however I have highlighted and translated the most important parts which are describing Krka Šibenik hydro power plant Jaruga. We emphasize the importance of this system and its role, not only in development of the Croatian power system but also point out its importance in regional power systems context.

Best regards,

Tomislav Capuder

Tcapuder21:50, 29 November 2012

The nomination appears to be missing the letter of support from the Section Chair.

Suggest changing World War I to the date (perhaps 1914).

Is this statement the proposed plaque wording or the citation?

""Krka-Šibenik Electric Power System On 28 August 1895 electricity generated at this location was transmitted to the city of Šibenik, where six power transformers supplied a large number of street lamps. This early system of power generation, transmission and distribution was one of the first complete multiphase alternating current systems in the world and it remained in operation until World War I."

Lise Johnston18:37, 12 December 2012

Thank you for your comments.

Croatia Section initiated this nomination and the current Section Chair, Igor Kuzle, is one of the nominators of this Milestone. I will additionally ask him to upload a letter of support from the Section.

I advise against changing "until World War I" to "until 1914" on the citation, as that would leave the audience with less context. At that time, the power plant was shut down and some of its metals re-melted as ammunition. However, Šibenik did not remain without electricity, the city and the region remained powered from another nearby plant.

The text you quoted is indeed the proposed citation:

Title: Krka-Šibenik Electric Power System

Citation: On 28 August 1895 electricity generated at this location was transmitted to the city of Šibenik, where six power transformers supplied a large number of street lamps. This early system of power generation, transmission and distribution was one of the first complete multiphase alternating current systems in the world and it remained in operation until World War I.

Note: the plaque would be posted at the power plant location inside the Krka National Park, hence "at this location" in the text. For more information please click (and select English) and/or The approximate location is seen on one of the photos on the wikipedia page, as well as photos uploaded to this page.

Marko Delimar, 12 December 2012, 13 December 2012

Zagreb, 13 December 2013 ____________________________________________________

Dear Madame,

as Marko Delimar already mentioned I am the first nominator of Krka-Sibenik Electric Power System Milestone. Executive committee of IEEE Croatia Section decide to propose Krka - Sibenik Electric Power System for Milestone because we belive that technical achievement is more than suitable to be IEEE Milestone. So we strongly support that nomination.

Igor Kuzle IEEE Croatia Section Chair, 13 December 2012

 Regarding the issue of "1914" v. "World War I," the specific year should not be specified until it can be confirmed. It's quite likely that the station was not shut and scavenged for metals until later in the war.

Alexander Magoun, Ph.D., Outreach Historian, IEEE History Center

Administrator717:47, 20 February 2013